No treatment hives - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    695

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackBirds View Post
    Ok, to put the conversation in perspective, do you know what is the normal colony average in your parts? Not trying to be mean but that is only #65 average. I have no idea, maybe that is good for your area. In comparision, it'd be 55-70% of a summer only crop on long term average here and below 50% of summer crop from some of the country north of you.
    60 lbs. is about average for our area, nobody beats a path to Kansas chasing a honey crop

    And, we generally have a long summer dearth and an unreliable fall flow so I always leave a couple extra mediums worth of honey on every hive to overwinter on because I don't ever feed.


    Don

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Johnson City, TN
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    257

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    I would think wild bees are better survivors because they are allowed to swarm without intervention. The swarming allows them to leave nests where they experience pest and disease pressures. It's a clean start. There is a wider brood break than often there is in beekeeping if we say, move a swarm or split onto drawn comb even. It's kind of a big gamble for the bees but I imagine it does a number on their mite counts.
    4th Yr. 8 hives. Italian/Carniolan apiary. 3 loss over 4 yr. W.NC location.
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  4. #23
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    13,203

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    And, we generally have a long summer dearth and an unreliable fall flow so I always leave a couple extra mediums worth of honey on every hive to overwinter on because I don't ever feed.
    I was wondering if it was possible to not feed in areas that have low honey output.
    Good for you Don
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Michigan, USA
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    455

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    I've gone to Kansas to chase coyotes but not honey!

  6. #25
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    Feb 2011
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    Big Stone Gap, VA
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    1,261

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by gruntworker View Post
    Although i have no plans to ever bring any scutellata around the family that lets me use their 3.5 acres of land, I have read through our forums enough to find the predominate feeling is that if you don't treat they die.
    I have been told this. And it is simply not true. Yes, if you don't treat, some will die. But, even if you treat, some will die. As far as honey production, our TF hives fall in line with the VA state average. (which is not that great, our honey season ends after the sourwood bloom in mid to late July).

    Shane

  7. #26
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    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
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    6,034

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by tsmullins View Post
    I have been told this. And it is simply not true. Yes, if you don't treat, some will die. But, even if you treat, some will die. As far as honey production, our TF hives fall in line with the VA state average. (which is not that great, our honey season ends after the sourwood bloom in mid to late July).

    Shane
    I don't mean this as an insult, but is is possible the state average is largely influenced by the fact that most don't treat? I think it's worth considering. I always kind of wonder how accurate those numbers are anyway (probably very inaccurate).

    I think Iowa is something like 70% of keepers not treating. Those people are loosing 50-70% of their bees every year.

  8. #27
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    Feb 2011
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    Big Stone Gap, VA
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    1,261

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    I don't mean this as an insult, but is is possible the state average is largely influenced by the fact that most don't treat? I think it's worth considering. I always kind of wonder how accurate those numbers are anyway (probably very inaccurate).

    I think Iowa is something like 70% of keepers not treating. Those people are loosing 50-70% of their bees every year.
    No offense taken,

    You have a valid point. We live in a very mountainous region. Our major flows, with the exception of sourwood and Linden, come early. Since the flows come early the bees have to be built up and these early flows are often missed due to weather. This year we missed our early maple flow, as well as the entire sourwood flow. Poplar and black locust hit at the same time. Wish we had better flows, we just don't.

    Shane

  9. #28
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    Aug 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Michigan, USA
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    455

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    I think geography is a really good point. I don't know anything about Virginia but I'd guess it isnt really far enough south to be a popular spot to winter bees and most likely doesnt have the large pollination needs of some states. I think when you have some geographic seperation that allows you to pick up a few less pests as quickly as you could otherwise.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Gilbert, Az
    Posts
    154

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by tsmullins View Post
    I have been told this. And it is simply not true. Yes, if you don't treat, some will die. But, even if you treat, some will die. As far as honey production, our TF hives fall in line with the VA state average. (which is not that great, our honey season ends after the sourwood bloom in mid to late July).

    Shane
    It means a lot to me to keep this hive alive. I only have one hive at this point and I find that watching and tinkering with them between my 3 jobs is the third most cathartic activity I have and the only one I can do in isolation. So while I fond treatment free interesting I think i am going to make sure I am very well informed with all aspects of soft and hard treatments so I can educate myself and keep the bees safe.

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Manning, SC
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    5,223

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by tsmullins View Post
    But, even if you treat, some will die.
    True, but you can prevent death by V Mite.
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  12. #31
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    Sep 2015
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    Nicholls, Georgia, USA
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    101

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    i believe as long as hives have a queen they are ok. i know weather affects them alot. I like the hybrid queen russian/itialian

  13. #32
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    Nov 2009
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    Manning, SC
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    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by bw200314 View Post
    i believe as long as hives have a queen they are ok.
    To what do you base your belief? What if your belief is wrong?
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  14. #33
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    Apr 2015
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    Meadville, MS, USA
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    101

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Maybe the bees are more aggressive because they are constantly plagued by mites?




    "Mama said alligators are ornery cause they got all them teeth and no toothbrush."

  15. #34
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    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbee View Post
    Maybe the bees are more aggressive because they are constantly plagued by mites?
    Or constantly plagued by humans & their treatments
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  16. #35
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    May 2013
    Location
    Gilbert, Az
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    154

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    [QUOTE=ljbee;1332780]Maybe the bees are more aggressive because they are constantly plagued by mites?



    The man I talked to said his bees had low mite counts. I didn't ask him how often, what method, or even why he checks mites if he has no intent to treat them but, I would bet that he was telling me the truth.

    I have to work hard to get these Italians mad enough to sting me. Although I moved them once and arrived after the sun had set...

  17. #36
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    Sep 2013
    Location
    Central Alabama, Shelby County
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    323

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by gruntworker View Post

    He believes that the most gentle bees to be the victims of Varroa. It must be possible to train a trait of gentleness into bees by selective breading. I wonder this trait would weaken them...
    One of the points brought forward by TF beekeepers is that chemical treatment allows inferior genetics to survive. You have to filter through them to find the occasional jewel. There is a local nuc breeder that breeds strictly for gentleness as most of his customers are beginners.

    This is my second beekeeping career. When re-entering the hobby I tried SC/TF on LC package/LC nucs. The type you work without a veil. They died. My half of my current crop are ferals, half pit viper and half stomped on cottonmouth. They are alive. The other half are Carpenter queens and the jury i still out on them.

    Africanized are SC/TF.

  18. #37
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    13,203

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Don't know what all the acronyms mean.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #38
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    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    10,898

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Treatment Free
    Small Cell
    Large Cell
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
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    1,407

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    I think there are enough published mechanisms of mite resistance that the idea that bees can survive only with broodbreaks and swarming can be put to rest.

    Mite resistance can be solved by shifts in behaviour, using tools the bees already possess if they use them. Some bees are using them. Proper selection is needed to bring them to the fore.

  21. #40
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    10,341

    Default Re: No treatment hives

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    I think there are enough published mechanisms of mite resistance that the idea that bees can survive only with broodbreaks and swarming can be put to rest.

    Mite resistance can be solved by shifts in behaviour, using tools the bees already possess if they use them. Some bees are using them. Proper selection is needed to bring them to the fore.
    good post. i would only add that while the focus has been concentrated on genetics and traits (mostly because that's something we can work with) there are likely other factors at play such as the role of nutrition and beneficial symbionts in the hive (which are poorly understood at this point but hopefully our scientists are trying to figure out).

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