The road to treatment free... - Page 7
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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Boerne TX
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    107

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    A lot of complaints that the Weaver bees run a little on the hot side. During my research for treatment free bees, being a little hot is not a bad thing for treatment free. As I understand the more aggressive colonies have less mite issues and are noted to make more honey. Its not been something that I have witnessed, but living in S. Texas our bees are a little hot.

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  3. #122
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO United States
    Posts
    1,441

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I have no reason to believe it isn't. Some of the history may be a bit murky, though.
    Isn't all history
    Please excuse me, I am now free to go manage & treat ;)
    my ladies the best way I know how.

  4. #123
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    3,065

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    I purchased 3 Weaver queens this past summer and have colonies going into winter that I would categorize as run of the mill. They are no more and no less defensive than the rest of my treatment free bees. However, when compared to the Italians I purchased from Glenn Fowler back in the early 1980's, my current bees are much more defensive.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  5. #124
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    7,861

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    I bought Pete's bees in NY that has the mild temperament of the Italians/Russian mixed. Then my local
    carnis drones from the bee association nearby are the gentlest type I have ever seen. My question is if
    I graft from Pete's queen and her daughters are mated with the local carnis, what kind of bees do I have?
    Are they hot, a little hot or extra gentle? What do you think?

    Also, I think the little hotter than usual bees are influenced by the local environment. It is a trait that can
    be selected over time to pick the gentle bees. In the area without the AHB influence you can raise the extra
    gentle bees. It is a matter of knowing how to select them.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  6. #125
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,252

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    The cross will tend towards hotter than either parent, but can vary, can be pretty gentle also.

  7. #126
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I will agree that bees left to sink or swim on their own rapidly develop tolerance traits, however, most of them are based on serial swarming with extreme brood breaks any time nectar is not available. These are not traits conducive to producing honey.
    I would agree with you about the natural brood breaks being very important. The hives I have that don't shut down brood production during our late summer dearth invariably fail after a couple of seasons.

    Like wise I've found that any management that stimulates brood rearing is counter productive to long term colony survival.


    Don


    5 years, 20 - 30 colonies, tf, sc. Have never bought a bee.

  8. #127
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
    Posts
    6,034

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth? We didn't have one here, in fact the flow seemed to pick up steam as summer went one and then into what has amounted to a great fall flow.
    Is a good honey year just a bad treatment free year?

  9. #128
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth?
    Varroa wins eventually.


    Don

  10. #129
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,252

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Ah - that's interesting and may be part of my problem, brood 365 days a year here.

  11. #130
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,257

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    Varroa wins eventually.
    Don
    Very interesting about the brood breaks Vs the mites breeding success. Perhaps this action that could easily be driven by local weather and nectar flow is one of the main deciding factors. Some persons success in regards to TF might well be wrongly attributed to something else entirely.
    Frank

  12. #131

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    double post deleted
    Last edited by Juhani Lunden; 09-24-2015 at 07:39 AM.

  13. #132

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth? We didn't have one here, in fact the flow seemed to pick up steam as summer went one and then into what has amounted to a great fall flow.
    Is a good honey year just a bad treatment free year?
    Probably is.
    For instance John Kefuss has crossed A.m.intermissa into his stock. Intermissa is famous for midsummer brood breaks. (Sahara dearth)
    My bees seem to be every year alarmingly weak in the beginning of August. This is because of slow down of brood rearing in midsummer. Then they recover before winter. Varroa resistant bees, at least what there is today, have smaller brood areas and they keep a good control of brood. They open infested cells. Regarding to defensive behaviour I agree with Fusion Power, my bees are more aggressive than before. They can be Ok, but for instance when they are waiting for a young queen to become mature, they can be almost unmanageable.

  14. #133
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
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    6,034

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Seems like a good way to lose colonies having them dwindle to nothing and then hope there is enough left there to boot back up for the fall flow and then enough of a fall flow to store enough food. Those bees would have starved to death here last year by September. How effectively can a colony like that forage in the fall or even early spring coming through winter? Are they also extremely frugal? Waiting until nectar and pollen are readily available in the spring before they start laying?

  15. #134

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Because we don't have a fall flow here, such hives having bees with "brood breaks" in August or so, are dead before winter, simple as that. I find the bees that have brood all year round, survive the best. Not excessive brood, but always a nice and stable brood pattern.

    Also I don't think, hotness is a required feature of treatment free bees. I have some dozens of treatment free hives, for years, and those bees are calm as can be. I posted a video recently. Here is another one, of a colony in a wall of an old house:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzhSjk-XSbc

    I am watching those and some other wild hives for years and they survive on their own. You can stuck your nose right into the entrance (Yes, I do that. Smelling what's going on inside.) and they are not even slightly aggressive. So aggressiveness is not bound to mite tolerance. And not the other way round.

    Africanized bees in Southern America loose their varroa tolerance after the other varroa type of mite landed there. So even those africanized bees are not truely resistent. Although they are aggressive, as I hear.

    There are some studies I read, and they came to the conclusion, aggressiveness doesn't help neither with varroa resistence nor with honey production. From what I have experienced so far, I support this view.

    There are different sorts of aggressiveness, though. Bees defending the entrance are not necessarily fighting the beekeeper who intrudes into the hive. Also entrance aggressiveness doesn't mean, they show brood hygienic behaviour. The chewing and clearing of punched/freezed brood doesn't necessarily mean they can detect and remove mites in capped brood.

    I didn't find the formula what the actual mechanism is, that let the bees survive on their own. But I know, that it is not aggressive, defensive behaviour.

  16. #135
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
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    695

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    Seems like a good way to lose colonies having them dwindle to nothing and then hope there is enough left there to boot back up for the fall flow and then enough of a fall flow to store enough food. Those bees would have starved to death here last year by September.
    Got to leave them plenty of honey reserves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    How effectively can a colony like that forage in the fall or even early spring coming through winter? Are they also extremely frugal? Waiting until nectar and pollen are readily available in the spring before they start laying?

    The bees that survive best in my apiary start a little slower but have explosive growth in the spring triggered by maple pollen in late Feb. or early march. Bee populations by the time our main flow starts in mid April are about the same or bigger. And by the time yellow clover kicks in in May the hives are really booming. After clover the brood rearing slows or shuts down for about a month in late July and starts back up again in response to early golden rod in late August. By mid to late September bee numbers are back up some in time to catch some of the fall flow from golden rod and asters.

    They are not better or worse bees just different and have to be managed differently to maximize production. (And, yes they will flat light me up if I mess with them in August.)

    They still don't survive varroa forever, they just die slower.

    Don

  17. #136
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
    Posts
    6,034

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    D Semple,
    Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?

  18. #137
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
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    695

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    D Semple,
    Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?
    Don't know, I have never looked for that.

    Don

  19. #138
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Manassas, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,080

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    D Semple,
    Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?
    This was on my mind recently. I split two nucs of of my strongest hive, moving the queen to one of the nucs. The strong hive and the other nuc raised emergency queens from eggs, giving a nice brood break.

    Well, fine, but I'd been warned that brood breaks just mean the phoretic mites are still alive and waiting for some brood about to cap, and can do so for quite a while. According to a recent Bee Culture magazine, the mite population may dwindle some but the method is not 100% by a long shot. So I have to figure, when the new queen starts laying, that the phoretic mites make a mad dash for the first larvae to be capped.

    In my case, the new queen in the strong hive stumbled on to the Pierco drone frame and must have liked the color or something because she proceeded to pack it with drone brood. This was really silly ... they'd hatch just in time for the drone eviction. But what the heck, when I found a deep frame 80% covered with capped drone brood a couple of weeks after she mated, they were outta there, and their nasty mites with them.

    Which left me wondering. The very first brood to cap would have been worker brood. Just how badly did they get infested? The bees are VSH, so hopefully they would deal with the problem, and apparently did. Their mite drop rate now is tiny.

    But would it make sense to cull the first round of capped brood after a brood break?

  20. #139
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Cumberland Va.
    Posts
    4,869

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    I'm not sure that I would want to do that, though I am sure it would be hard on the mites. Seems to me like after a good brood break, the hive is declining in numbers significantly by the time the first round of new brood emerges. Not sure how the 2 "extra" weeks of broodbreak would affect the colony, I am sure there are many variables, but I would expect it to put the hive more than the 2 wks behind. G
    The Bees are the Beekeepers

  21. #140
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Dolianova, Sardinia, Italy
    Posts
    263

    Default Re: The road to treatment free...

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Because we don't have a fall flow here, such hives having bees with "brood breaks" in August or so, are dead before winter, simple as that. I find the bees that have brood all year round, survive the best. Not excessive brood, but always a nice and stable brood pattern.
    Bernhard, this is very interesting to me, as I live in a place where bees keep brood year round. I would have thought it a terrible liability as far as Varroa is concerned, as it gives the Varroa the opportunity to breed nonstop. Any ideas why your year-round brood keepers are stronger? Do you think it is just because they are able to build up well in summer in preparation for your fall dearth, or is there another reason?

    John

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