randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper
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  1. #1
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    Default randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Harvard Medical School's Dr. Alex Lu has another paper out. I was asked by
    some extension horticulturists to comment on it. You can read my review at

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-re...massachusetts/

    --
    Randy Oliver
    Grass Valley, CA
    www.ScientificBeekeeping.com


    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...&F=&S=&P=87393
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    All I can say is WOW!

    Oliver does know his stuff.

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper and Rusty's Bees.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    The irony is that bad science can potentially be more damaging to pollinators in the real world of pest control than what is being currently done. I'm a bit confused though. Has Dr. Lu's gobbledygook v2.0 actually been peer reviewed and published and if so in what? My understanding is that his initial findings didn't pass muster with most experts and were only accepted in a lesser publication.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #4
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/pre...massachusetts/

    The study will be published online July 23, 2015 in the Journal of Environmental Chemistry.

    the only place I can find it cost $25.00 to read it. not worth the money for me, randies evaluation has more value than that.
    http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/EN15064.htm
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  6. #5
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    If there was only one toxin to worry about I would say no problem but how much junk have we dumped into the environment. Just one more straw on the camels back.

  7. #6
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Randy,

    Thanks for the analysis/review of the paper and the references.

    I am not extensively trained in science - and like most of the population have been lulled into believing much of the nonsense in "published" papers must obviously be true because the paper is full of terms and procedures I don't understand, can't relate to, and/or are endorsed by/associated with a well known and respected name or publication. What we assume to be true, becomes true in our own minds.

    I do want to thank you for taking the time to share your extensive knowledge in this field to respond to this (and calling it out for what it is - misleading at best) publicly.

    The errors, assumptions, and leaps of faith made in the document you pointed out seem pretty significant (even to me)... Thanks for calling those out, translating so we understand, and providing backup references for each. The translation of some of the values presented into real-world examples was extremely helpful... (PPM and mg/kg/day are great measurements for science I am sure - but no idea what that actually means to me though from a practical standpoint ....10,000 lbs of apples - now that I understand).

    Just wanted to say thanks for sharing this and I appreciate the effort (and hours) it must have taken for you to respond to the source article.

    Well written....

    Sky

  8. #7
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    For many academics, it is the quantity of published artcles, not the quality that counts. The old adage, "Publish or Perish".
    Tim
    "Amateurs built the Ark; Professionals built the "Titanic".

  9. #8
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky View Post
    Randy,

    Thanks for the analysis/review of the paper and the references.

    To clarify, the original post is only a link to Oliver's article on his homepage, and not actually his own post here on Beesource. If you want to reach him you'll need to go to his page.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  10. #9
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Digman View Post
    If you want to reach him you'll need to go to his page.
    And consider donating to his efforts. Right side of the page you can keep help finance his work.
    -- Joe
    "Make your own decision and embrace the consequences." -- jwcarlson

  11. #10
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by lemmje View Post
    And consider donating to his efforts. Right side of the page you can keep help finance his work.
    Actually if you want to e-mail him, and expect a reply, don't you have to donate to his efforts?
    Mark Berninghausen

  12. #11
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    I'm happy to support Randy as I can as once upon a time I was happy to help BeeSource.

  13. #12
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    The irony is that bad science can potentially be more damaging to pollinators in the real world of pest control than what is being currently done. I'm a bit confused though. Has Dr. Lu's gobbledygook v2.0 actually been peer reviewed and published and if so in what? My understanding is that his initial findings didn't pass muster with most experts and were only accepted in a lesser publication.
    Yet he took his findings to the press, before he actually finished his garbage study, in which the media ate it all up. Reminds me of the Cristy Morran study that was brought to the press before peer reviewed. That one hit headlines too

  14. #13

    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Good cop - bad cop...

    One who writes garbage, another to proof him wrong. And of course, if one guy is wrong, all others are wrong as well.

    Good ol' propaganda.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Actually if you want to e-mail him, and expect a reply, don't you have to donate to his efforts?
    Actually I wrote him before I ever contributed and got a reply. He even checked some dysentery for nosema at no charge for me.

  16. #15
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Main stream scientists without an agenda are pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of his studies. I understand you start any scientific experiment with a hypothesis but it's apparent by his background that he has more of an agenda than a hypothesis. He should have used a larger sample size and given them field realistic dosages......or better yet monitored large groups of hives in the real world. This 18 hive study proves little more than if you force feed a hive enough pesticide that you will eventually kill it.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-en...b_6323626.html
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  17. #16
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Good cop - bad cop...

    One who writes garbage, another to proof him wrong. And of course, if one guy is wrong, all others are wrong as well.

    Good ol' propaganda.
    as all those "others" pat the garbage maker on the back...
    Makes me think , YUP

  18. #17

    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Unfortunately science became too political and there are too much inter-relations into the business world.

    For example, there is heaps of activity of Bayer at German universities. They have "secret contracts" with major universities. Some NGOs tried to get those contracts open to the public, since the universities are public, but the contracts remain secret.
    https://translate.google.de/translat...tml&edit-text=

    Every fourth Euro comes from the industry
    It is estimated that in Germany more than a thousand endowed chairs at universities: professors who are often not paid by the state but by companies. And already in 2011 the universities and polytechnics were given Federal Statistical Office at least 6.3 billion euros from private financing, and rising. Other sources such as the business-related Donors' Association for German Science even go out of well over ten billion euros per year, the company put into the research at universities.
    I myself once held a presentation about neonics at a national entomologist meeting, where lots of professors met. After the presentation some professors came to me and said to me, that I am very bold to publically speak about neonics. I guess, I was rather naive... But what I found, they were very cowardly. Too many of them depend on their income and as I found, there is some mechanism of kicking out scientists out of their job, when they start to talk unpopularily things.

    Guess what, Bayer people were present there, too. They never took part at a entomologists meeting, since those insect people are rather bizarre at times. Some guy stood up after my presentation and started to give his own lecture on the subject. Turned out, it was the Chief Scientist of Bayer in the plant protection departement: Dr. Maus. Although my presentation wasn't publically announced, they turned up.

    Since then I saw many things I would not have thought it could be possible. They seem to be everywhere.

    For example at dinners:

    Over the course of the day-long tour and dinner, all parties involved—the Bayer scientists, the government regulators, the seed companies, the growers, and the beekeepers—had ample opportunity to openly discuss issues and solutions. We were able to speak candidly with a number of Bayer environmental scientists from Germany, Canada, and the U.S., who all confirmed the high interest that Bayer has in developing bee-friendly products. Over dinner, I asked Dr. Christian Maus (Global Pollinator Safety Manager for Bayer CropScience)
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-ne...-clothianidin/

    Whatever.

    Never trust a study you didn't fake yourself.
    Last edited by BernhardHeuvel; 08-27-2015 at 03:26 AM. Reason: Same for reviews of any sorts. :O)

  19. #18
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    That illusion of power and might exhibited from big chem definitely is worrying. Our chem dependence has been deliberate and built up over decades. To turn this around involves more effort than simply crying at a loud speaker and marching the streets about how much we dislike chem agriculture. It involves answers and actions.
    This study is one example of the activist movement pushing agendas. We need efforts that give is direction and answers to all those underlying problems.

    My neighbour is organic. He needs 3 times the price to make a go out of his production. Bottom line never lies. As a beekeeper I love his as his weeds are my profits

  20. #19
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Bernhard, I share many of your concerns....and also find myself at odds with various interests....which can be interesting, and expensive (a lawsuit can be filed without a lawyer and for minimal expense that one would not want to deal with without hiring a lawyer).

    With that said, a free dinner (especially capping a full days tour and over continued discussions) hardly seems the kind of corruption that I would worry about. Dinner is dinner, unlikey to cost more than $150 even with drinks and a fancy presentation....but mostly it only lasts for one meal...hardly the same thing as a salary, a job, or even a freezer full of food.....or a proper bribe.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  21. #20
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    Default Re: randy oliver reviews a new Dr. Lu paper

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Good cop - bad cop...

    One who writes garbage, another to proof him wrong. And of course, if one guy is wrong, all others are wrong as well.

    Good ol' propaganda.
    .....and what kind of cop is the activist or beekeeper (or British MP) who uses such a study (that you classify as 'garbage') to support their position?

    Ignorant cop? Gullible cop? Wishful thinking cop? Ends justify the means cop?

    Anyone that wants to make a case against neonics would have a stronger case of they were outspoken about poorly done studies who's conclusions are not supported by the work.

    Anyone who cites such work because the conclusions support their agenda and does not take a critical look at it harms their own cause.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

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