All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong? - Page 9
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  1. #161

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post

    And the disadvantages:
    I would add

    6. Circulation of broodframes is tricky if using only on brood chamber per hive

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  3. #162
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenpbird View Post
    WE have hives like this in Germany, they are called hinterbehandlung beute and some of the very old beekeepers still use them. Some beekeepers have even put draw slides on them so one can manage them as you suggest. Funnily enough they were mostly replaced, for good reason, by the American style of hive which is manipulated from the top ie Langs.
    I haven't had much luck finding clear plans / blueprints for building this type of hive (AZ hive). I really like the idea of an all inclusive building that can be the beekeeping workshop. It would make hive inspections much easier by simply opening the back door of the hive and looking. The frames look pretty easy to manipulate as well.

    I will eventually work my way towards this goal. Its going to take some time, but I think it will be worth it.

    EDIT: I might have misunderstood, the AZ hive does not have pull out drawer style hives, but the frames slide in and out on metal rods. Metal for durability I would imagine.
    Last edited by jlaudiofan; 02-27-2016 at 05:33 PM. Reason: clarity

  4. #163
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Sandy, OR
    Posts
    498

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    Priceless. Though, I would love to experiment with a deep Dadant style just out of curiosity. There's something about a deep frame fully filled and ready to go "boom!" that a medium just doesnt have. Its all good fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    If you want to cook meat and have it be tender you do one of two things:

    1) cook it very hot and very quick
    2) cook it very slowly at just simmering temperatures

    So which is it? Both.

    Why do opposites often have the same results while something in the middle has the opposite result?

    In the case of mediums vs deeps vs dadant deeps the argument started between Langstroth and Dadant. Dadant felt that a deep was not enough comb for a queen to lay in and ten frames also were not enough. He also felt that 1 1/2" spacing would prevent swarming by providing more cluster space. Keep in mind that both Dadant and Langstroth were operating on the idea that there would be one box for brood. Dadant was correct on two counts. The queen seemed to be able to fill a Dadant 12 frame box with 11 1/4" frames just fine (11 if you do the 1 1/2" spacing) and not run out of room where in the North, at least, the Langstroth Deep with 10 9 1/4" frames was not quite big enough. So most Northern beekeepers ended up using two Langstroth deeps for the brood box that they would overwinter in while Dadant was using one 12 frame box. With the two Langstroth deeps, the frame is just deep enough that the queen hesitates to move up to the second box. With the Dadant deep she hardly ever moves up to the next box because the combs are deep enough for her. Now you use mediums, she does not hesitate at all to move up a box. So, in my experience, the worst size for a brood box is a deep. The best is either a Dadant deep or a medium. I don't think Brother Adam was wrong. His comparison was mostly British Standard deeps compared to a Dadant deep. He may have also experimented with the Langstroth deep. Of those three, I think the Dadant deep is the best choice, which was his conclusion. I'll bet if he had to manage all the boxes himself he would have preferred eight frame mediums by the time he was 50 or so... but I'm sure he had help. A 12 frame shallow super is very heavy AND very ungainly... I'm sure 12 frame hives are productive in a warm climate like California or a moderate climate like England. Not so much in Nebraska. Eight frames seem to work better here in the bitter cold than ten or twelve.
    Zone 8a - Elev.~ 1,100 ft. Sandy, OR.
    Apiculture: A culmination of animal husbandry and alchemy.

  5. #164

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    When using deeps you need to use a follower board. As the jumbo deep is too much space for smaller colonies and during spring buildup. To adapt the hive size to the smaller colony a follower board is necessary. At least in a 12 frame jumbo deep.

  6. #165
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,775

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    >Metal for durability I would imagine.

    Mostly to have a very small area that can be propolized and one that the propolis will easily come off of.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  7. #166
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    San Diego, Ca, USA
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    Michael, You say that Queens are hesitant to move up out of a deep. I have been trying to convert to all medium apiary but it is difficult since deeps are so standard. I have converted to all 8 frame boxes but had resigned myself to using one deep and two mediums as my standard brood chamber. I am fairly new to this and have noticed the resistance to moving into the medium supers on top of the deep. As well, I use deep nuc boxes for swarm traps and that starts the nasty cycle all over again. So, do you have any suggestion for doing the conversion? I hate the thought of trying to cut all those deep frames down to mediums while they are part of a working hive. Thx. RCC

  8. #167
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,775

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    First, I would say if you are changing frame size and combs then I would also change cell size to either natural comb or small cell at the same time. It will be the same amount of work. It just requires that you use either small cell foundation or foundationless frames.

    The concept, of course, is to get to a point where all of the old combs (deeps, large cell etc.) are out and all of the ones you want (small cell and mediums) are what you now have. So first, you need to view all of what you don't want as a liability to be eliminated and all of what you do want as an asset. During a flow anything but brood is fair game to remove. During a dearth, honey and pollen are assets. At any time brood is an asset. At any time you can remove empty frames. There are several ways you can deal with any given deep frame. You can leave them in a deep and any excess that can't be filled with a deep (because you pulled them out) you can fill in with a medium. This is what I tend to do if there are more deeps than mediums. If you have more mediums than deeps, you can put the deeps in two medium boxes (it will hang down into the medium box below). If you have only one or two deeps with brood you can cut the comb to fit a medium frame and rubber band it into the medium frame. You can also get the queen and a couple of frames of brood on the other side of an excluder from the frames you wish to remove and wait for the brood to emerge in those frames and then remove them from the hive. These are the concepts.

    So now to begin. The easiest time to begin is probably now. On a warm day you can look in the hive and pull any frame that is empty. You may have an entire box worth of empty deeps. This time of year there has been no flow to start refilling them and brood rearing is just getting into gear probably. The sooner you get the queen on the other side of an excluder from the combs you wish to remove, the better. If you have drawn medium frames, then try to get the queen on those. It's kind of early at lest in my part of the world to expect them to draw comb but they will be in about a month. So if you just keep removing empty frames until then, and after the flow gets into full swing you can steal any deeps with pollen and honey and harvest the honey. The pollen you can feed to the chickens (assuming there are any chickens) or cut them out and tie them into mediums (rubber bands probably...). Then applying the principles above you juggle things until all the boxes are full of frames. Later if you had comb on the bottom of a medium frame that was in a deep box, you can cut it off and rubber band it into a medium frame. If you have comb on the bottom of a deep (that was in two medium boxes) you can cut that off and rubber band it into a medium frame.

    I don't know how to just make it a step by step unless I make assumptions about some brute force method, but that is also a possibility. You can simply do a "cut out" where you cut every frame of brood to fit a medium and rubber band all the combs into mediums and harvest all the honey and scrap or cutout all the pollen. If you have thin strips of brood left over you can put several in a frame to fill it out. This would be a "brute force" method and you could do it in an afternoon as long as there is a decent amount of nectar and pollen available.

    A scaled back version of this is to cutout two combs of brood and put those with the queen on them on the other side of an excluder and wait for all the brood in the deeps to emerge and then pull them all.

    If you don't want to do any cut outs of combs, then you could pull empty frames, replace with mediums and wait for the queen to be laying in some of the mediums and then pull those above an excluder.

    All in all, I play it by ear and juggle it the best I can without stealing brood from them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  9. #168
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    San Diego, Ca, USA
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: All Mediums: Was Brother Adam wrong?

    Michael, Thank you. As usual, you are too generous with your time. I do already have almost all my bees on foundation-less frames. I was smart enough to read your book not long after I got my first hives. And I have put medium frames in some of the deep boxes and the bees were cooperative enough to draw out very vice foundation (with eventual brood or honey) from the bottom bar to the bee space in the bottom. Was fairly simple to cut it off cleanly and rubber band it into medium frames.
    As for the time of year, here in San Diego it seems to be always summer. This last 2 or 3 months have finally brought lots of rain and we have lots of flowers. I am looking at a whole hillside of beautiful blue rosemary bushes in full bloom as I write this. The bees have been active bringing in all kinds of pollen and nectar. In fact, I caught a very large swarm just last weekend. I can't figure out how the hive they left is going to get their virgin queen mated but again, I am fairly new to this and it is apparent that San Diego does not follow the usual patterns of other parts of the country. I was pretty happy with the idea of mixing a deep with medium boxes but as I said, I have noticed the queens are none to eager to go up into the medium above the deep. Interesting that Michael Palmer says his standard setup is one deep and two mediums for his brood chambers. I know he juggles the order of the boxes depending on circumstances, maybe that makes a big difference. Thanks again and,
    Best regards, RCC

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