Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jean-marc View Post
    Mike, they are not a Buckfast line... nothing to do with them. Developed by different guys at different times in different places.
    Hossein or Caspian Apiaries, developed Caspian solution and the Caspian bees. He has a unique selection plan. It is part of the production of caspian solution. It kinda goes hand in hand.

    In broad strokes queens are removed from possible breeders and made into nucs. The rest of the population is divided into 4 frame nucs. frames of eggs and larvae are added. When the bees cap the larvae those frames are removed, other frames of egg and larvae are added. Keep doing this until bees are exhausted. Best bees can do this 3 to 3.5 times. Some bees when made queenless suicide... they just fly off never to return. Sorry boys from down under but that is what we see. Others next door can do 1-1.5 frames... North American stock can do this 2 maybe 2.5 times. Caspian 3-3.5.

    There are other selection methods that he has but they all point to the same answer. It boils down to the ability of the bees to collect pollen, store it, turn it into jelly to fed larvae to make bees... in a nutshell. These bees are the best at it. They may not be the best bees in the world, but they are not number 5 either. They are simply better as far as my experience is concerned.

    The bees sent to Dave was a big scramble and little to no effort was made in the selection yet the reports were positive.

    Jean-Marc
    Jean-Marc, All races of bees have advantages and drawback, in your opinion what are the drawbacks of the Caspian bees?

    Can you explain the part in red, in greater detail, I'm afraid I'm not understanding what you are doing.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Colonies are made queenless by removing the queen and making a nuc with her... the queeright and queenless hives are all labelled in case lateron you wish to use such and such a colony for breeding.

    The queenless bees are then further divided. Assuming that at the start you had a good double, and everything was divided evenly each nuc should be about 4-5 frames of bees. Removes all brood from all queenless nucs. Then add 1 frame of eggs and larvae to all nucs. When it is capped over remove that frame then add another frame of eggs and larvae. Keep doing this until you find the colony that can do this the most. Caspian bess do this 3.5 times or so.

    What is being done is an attempt to find bees under similar conditions of similar strength that will have the ability to take eggs and larvae and make capped brood. This ability translates into very good bees.

    You also labelled all the nucs so you know which queen is the champion. From 10 there could be 2 or 3 outstanding ones. Now you have a direct physical evidence of a superior ability that ultimately means better bees. During the selection program you have an answer in about 30 days. Then you can graft from these. Using conventional selection plans you need to wait one year before you find out if you made the right selection.

    Jean-Marc

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Where can I get some queens from?

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Jean-Marc, I was wondering if you can elaborate on a few characteristics of Caspian bees.

    What about queen longevity? These days we're seeing relatively short queen longevity. 50% of our hives are needing to be re-queened every 8 months or so, and we're requeening at least annually. Decades ago queens had greater longevity. Now, it's probably environmental stress, but it might also be genetics. In your experience what kind of queen longevity are you seeing in the Caspian line? How often do you requeen your hives? Is there any advantage to Caspian bees?

    Since they are fast at population buildup is swarming a problem? Do they have more, or less of a tendency to swarm then other races of bees?

    What about hygienic behavior? How well do they handle hive pests (mites, beetles, wax moths)?

    Thank you.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jean-marc View Post
    What is being done is an attempt to find bees under similar conditions of similar strength that will have the ability to take eggs and larvae and make capped brood. This ability translates into very good bees.
    Jean-Marc
    How does this ability translate into selecting for good bees? Are there really bees that don't know how to rear brood....taking eggs and larvae to sealed brood stage. Surely there must be more in the selection criteria? Things like honey production, wintering ability, disease resistance, gentleness, etc.

    Not being critical, just trying to understand the process and theory.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    We just installed two Caspian nucs and I must say they are extremely mellow. I think I had one actually bonk me in the face during the install and that's about it. I just did a quick inspection (been about two weeks) and they seem to be moving right along. I didn't want to bother them too much but will dig further into them in maybe another two weeks. Did I mention that they are very calm and mellow?

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberwilhelm View Post
    We just installed two Caspian nucs..
    Since you just installed a couple nucs, can you tell us who is supplying them in the Northeast?

    So were they very calm and mellow?

    Wayne

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Since you mention they are the AMM, are they the same color as the Irish black bees too?
    I thought that we don't have any AMM here anymore. There are those mean black bees that some
    beekeepers mention.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jean-marc View Post
    The bees are Apis mellifera mellifera... not carnies, not caucasians. He called them Caspian likely because of strong nationalistic tendencies. They are good bees.

    Jean-Marc
    Jean-Marc, are you sure the Capsians are Apis Mellifera Mellifera, isn't that the European Dark Bee? Or are you saying that Caspians descend from Apis Mellifera Mellifera?

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    I am sure they are Amm. That is what I was told from Hossein. That is the European dark bee.

    Jean-Marc

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Since they are the AMM, how come some beekeepers on some posts said we don't have the
    AMM here anymore. So how pure AMM are they? They cannot be the AMM if they are half yellow, right.
    Any pics you can post from Houssin or from yours?
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Well the Caspian thing has suddenly arrived on the net in my little country, check this, starting at post #35 by Apiqueen.

    Seems Hossein literally saved Canada's bee population after being hired by their government. What a guy!

    http://www.nzbees.net/forum/threads/...ns.5902/page-2

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    I zoned out when GMO crops decimating the world started popping up....

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    How does this ability translate into selecting for good bees? Are there really bees that don't know how to rear brood....taking eggs and larvae to sealed brood stage. Surely there must be more in the selection criteria? Things like honey production, wintering ability, disease resistance, gentleness, etc.

    Not being critical, just trying to understand the process and theory.
    This!

    I am interested in learning more about these bees. Can you please provide more detail in explaining the link between "making capped brood" and "very good bees." It is an interesting method, but I am not seeing the logical connection between the "making capped brood" and either disease/pest tolerant or high honey production or some other practical trait?

    In other words, the process of:

    "The queenless bees are then further divided. Assuming that at the start you had a good double, and everything was divided evenly each nuc should be about 4-5 frames of bees. Removes all brood from all queenless nucs. Then add 1 frame of eggs and larvae to all nucs. When it is capped over remove that frame then add another frame of eggs and larvae. Keep doing this until you find the colony that can do this the most. Caspian bess do this 3.5 times or so."

    is an entirely man-made selection criteria, i.e., not something a hive is going to experience when put into production. Consequently, what "real world" trait is this selecting for?






    .
    Last edited by shinbone; 07-02-2015 at 08:19 AM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by brettj777 View Post
    I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.
    Please explain

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Perfect! Now we have another line of bees to deal with the mites.
    Is this line a different type of bee or a decedent of the carnis?
    Well, there's also the Saskatraz..

    http://www.saskatraz.com/abstract.htm

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by brettj777 View Post
    I can't believe this thread is still going....a made up race of bees to suck the money out of gullible beeks.

    Hmm. Let me see. As far as I know the 20 queens that went south 2 years ago to California were given. So I supplied 20 that day, I think Hossein a few more. I got zero dollars from all the gullible beeks. Dave Miksa got a few from that lot, no royalties, no payment. Apparently he liked them enough that he wanted more. None were sent. Too busy over here.

    As far as made up... well whatever... they go through a unique selection plan , came from a certain part of the world, and we have what we have. Like it or not, believe what I say or not, it ultimately does not matter. A few breeders get sent to California and we get some queens back for our own use or for sale in nucs or singles. For the most part customers are happy.

    Jean-Marc

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Almost forgot, the best and only way to make sure that a thread does not continue, is to make sure that you not contribute.

    Jean-Marc

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Caspian bees - I'd like to learn more about this line of bees

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    This!

    I am interested in learning more about these bees. Can you please provide more detail in explaining the link between "making capped brood" and "very good bees." It is an interesting method, but I am not seeing the logical connection between the "making capped brood" and either disease/pest tolerant or high honey production or some other practical trait?

    In other words, the process of:

    "The queenless bees are then further divided. Assuming that at the start you had a good double, and everything was divided evenly each nuc should be about 4-5 frames of bees. Removes all brood from all queenless nucs. Then add 1 frame of eggs and larvae to all nucs. When it is capped over remove that frame then add another frame of eggs and larvae. Keep doing this until you find the colony that can do this the most. Caspian bess do this 3.5 times or so."

    is an entirely man-made selection criteria, i.e., not something a hive is going to experience when put into production. Consequently, what "real world" trait is this selecting for?






    .
    I am not sure what the exact link is other than it is. Some bees Mike P. cannot make capped brood very well. For instance bees that have come to Canada from Australia are notoriously bad at it. If you take a good colony population wise, and remove the queen to make a nuc... then divide the remaining bees into nucs, the adults commit suicide. I would say more than half fly off to their death. They simply abandon the brood. Why? I dunno. They just do. I have seen it more than once... slow learner.

    The method to make the selection points to the descendants of the queen that can take the same amount of resources available to all and make more bees with the available resources. This translates into more bees more honey.

    As far as gentleness goes it comes from this behavior. In Iran and I have seen firsthand in Australia lids that are about 2 inches deep. They are of the exact width and length as the honey supers or brood chambers. Inner covers are a piece of fabric... beekeeper choice. The lids have a hole drilled front and back covered with a screen. Entrances to hives are small and have a metal contraption that slides as a door latch and bees can be locked in and moved.

    The selection took place when a few hives from the hundreds if not thousands that were moved did not crawl up into the lid. Most bees during transit go up. A few did not. They just sat quietly on the brood. Queens were raised from those particular hives. It means that I have been able to load strong hives just before dark without a veil. I wear eyeglasses, throw a veil on top then cloudiness or nightfall approaching makes for poor visibility. With these bees I can work without a veil to load the bees and not get all beat up. Now I can see without straining too much. How cool is that?

    Oldtimer:

    I did not read the thread. Hossein is not overly popular with the government. He has not saved the Canadian bee population. On the other hand he did help me save some of mine.

    Jean-Marc

    P.S.- More later. I am going to the beach with the Mrs.

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