Today in the Apiary - Page 132
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  1. #2621
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    LJ, ever raise chickens? An egg appears to be non-porus but in fact water diffuses through the shell and membrane readily. If not kept in a very humid environment, the chicks will get stuck to the shell and not hatch properly. Also waiting for the SpaceX launch before going out to play with the bees.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

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  3. #2622
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Launched!!!

    Once wrote a paper explaining all the forces acting on water - did not complete it - gave up - Prof agreed too - was long enough. I had never considered diffusion - guess I got time now that my bees are taking care of themselves.

  4. #2623
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    LJ, ever raise chickens? An egg appears to be non-porus but in fact water diffuses through the shell and membrane readily. If not kept in a very humid environment, the chicks will get stuck to the shell and not hatch properly.
    Sure I have - but egg-shells ain't made of wax.

    Let's not forget that before the advent of silicone treatments, beeswax was the substance of choice for making materials waterproof. It repels moisture.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  5. #2624
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Today in the apiary in one of my favorite hives,MP queen, two full supers of honey, needing to be capped. Also in another hive I found something I have never seen in my apiary, full size capped swarm cells that were empty. Anyone know why this might have happened? The hive needed room, there were eggs, the MP queen looked good. Gave them some room, should be good till we can get more equipment, which I do not want to do. I was taken aback somewhat on how fast these hives grew, they were packed.
    Proverbs 16:24

  6. #2625
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Sure I have - but egg-shells ain't made of wax.
    Neither are brood cappings, at least not entirely. They have to be porous so the larvae can breathe. If oxygen molecules can transverse the cappings, so can water molecules, which we all know are smaller.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #2626
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Cloverdale,
    Hope you guys are well.

    I think those queen cells you mention being capped and empty weren't always so. They held a queen but the cap was 'hinged' on a portion and fell back into place after she emerged so now looks like it was never opened by a emerging queen.
    If you take your pocket knife you'll very likely be able to lift the cap back off and see she released herself just like always, may even see the 'hinge' that caused the confusion.
    MPalmer has a good bee up there in VT. I've been meaning to email him and tell him why I like them so much. Working with 3 of his lines and like them all.
    clyderoad

  8. #2627
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
    Cloverdale,
    Hope you guys are well.

    I think those queen cells you mention being capped and empty weren't always so. They held a queen but the cap was 'hinged' on a portion and fell back into place after she emerged so now looks like it was never opened by a emerging queen.
    If you take your pocket knife you'll very likely be able to lift the cap back off and see she released herself just like always, may even see the 'hinge' that caused the confusion.
    MPalmer has a good bee up there in VT. I've been meaning to email him and tell him why I like them so much. Working with 3 of his lines and like them all.
    clyderoad
    Thanks, I never thought of that, but I saw the queen and she is last years queen, still marked I have three lines of his also, and am waiting patiently for the next batch in July. I am glad you are doing good.
    Proverbs 16:24

  9. #2628
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    March in May- Dry comb lots of pollen, couple queen cups, no real sign of swarming spirit. Put 1:1 back on for a bit to bridge the flow. They went right to it. Smallest colony that was an overwintered nuc has by far the most stores and the best foragers. They are also the most gentle. They got two extra frames of brood today.
    I'm smart but at the end of the day I'm still the help.

  10. #2629
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Thanks, an Interesting Rabbit Hole " If oxygen molecules can transverse the cappings, so can water molecules" !

    Drilling down: ( I may get a headache over the time period noted for a stable water molecule - I'll never go ice skating on a pond again )

    Water molecules c are tiny, electrically neutral and V-shaped with molecular formula H2O a and molecular diameter about 2.75 . g Water is much smaller than almost all other molecules. For example, it has a smaller volume, and is much lighter, than the four other common atmospheric molecules, oxygen (O2), nitrogen (N2), argon (Ar) and carbon dioxide (CO2); the density of water vapor being just 62% the density of dry air [2215].

    In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons in H2O being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are continually exchanging between water molecules, due to protonation/deprotonation processes. Both acids and bases catalyze this exchange and even when at its slowest (at pH 7), the average time for the atoms in an H2O molecule to stay together is only about a millisecond. As this brief period is, however, much longer than the timescales encountered during investigations into water's hydrogen bonding or hydration properties, water is usually treated as a permanent structure.

  11. #2630
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Neither are brood cappings, at least not entirely. They have to be porous so the larvae can breathe. If oxygen molecules can transverse the cappings, so can water molecules, which we all know are smaller.
    From my post 2618:
    With open cells I can see the importance of a high humidity, but capped cells ? It's only the cell caps themselves which are porous and thus of significance in considerations of humidity issues - but as they represent only a relatively small surface area, the amount of air diffusing through them must be very small.
    Contrast the percentage of a cell-cap area viz-a-viz the cell as a whole. with the 100% surface area of a hen's egg. Huge difference in percentage terms.

    Also, FWIW - the queen-cell is composed of 3 different types of wax: the cell-walls (which appear to be simple, straightforward beeswax) and the lining (certainly that which is used to line Nicot cell-cups) - which is a wax-propolis mix. I discovered this difference while experimenting with sodium bicarbonate and sodium hydroxide to clean used Nicot cell-cups - and thirdly, the porous cap itself. I don't think the clean circular cut which the emerging virgin queen makes to remove the cap is pure coincidence - she probably cuts exactly where the two type of wax are joined. (needs confirming, of course)
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  12. #2631
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    This is the humidity that I was seeing in my hive over several years. For the first year where the humidity was always at 90% I think the sensor was mostly railed/maxed out. After that was when I started running quilt boxes. The humidity sensor is located in the top of the hive on the bottom of the inner cover, then on the bottom of the quilt box.

    humidity 2017-oct 2019.jpg

  13. #2632
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    LJ, you know I am somewhat playing with you on this topic. I agree that the total permeable surface area of a cell is only a small percentage of the total area, and that the cell walls, being made primarily of beswax are not relevant in the diffusion. I also know that as absurd as it sounds, a pinhole in an air line of -100F dewpoint compressed air can allow a measurable amount of humidity into the system, even while the air is escaping from it. Had a real hard time wrapping my head around that one.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  14. #2633
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    I am unable to read the file. I think it is too compressed an thus smears the data for a day or two. I do not see big swings in data over the period of a day or two or three or four until recently. I record once a day, by pen, in the morning or later in the day. Monitoring a display at other times does not show significant variations........... until now as I am typing this. I have to go an investigate hive status. We did have a big weather change here today.

    Of course hive design and location has an effect. Whose sensor are you using? I use a simple 3 external sensor weather station.

  15. #2634
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    From my post 2618:

    Also, FWIW - the queen-cell is composed of 3 different types of wax: the cell-walls (which appear to be simple, straightforward beeswax) and the lining (certainly that which is used to line Nicot cell-cups) - which is a wax-propolis mix.
    LJ
    Great info LJ, I didnt know that.
    Proverbs 16:24

  16. #2635
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloverdale View Post
    Great info LJ, I didnt know that.
    Thanks - neither did I - it seems there's always something new to learn

    On this humidity transfer across the porous cell-cap issue (to save me writing a separate post) - this has to be passive transfer, as there's no pressure gradient involved. It's not as if the queen is sucking and blowing to assist the air flow (or is she ?). I continue to find it amazing that this whole beekeeping malarky works so well. It's no wonder people have been fascinated by bees over thousands of years.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  17. #2636
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john
    I continue to find it amazing that this whole beekeeping malarky works so well. It's no wonder people have been fascinated by bees over thousands of years.
    LJ


    You do not need a pressure gradient, just one of concentration.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  18. #2637
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I continue to find it amazing that this whole beekeeping malarky works so well. It's no wonder people have been fascinated by bees over thousands of years.
    I enjoyed reading this discussion and I learned a lot. It is indeed amazing that the more one learns about the life and mechanisms of a honeybee colony, the more there is to be fascinated about- and all of life exhibits this incredible complexity that often belies what is apparent from casual observation.
    Ecclesiastes 11:4

  19. #2638
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    Default

    In April I had made a vertical split of my strong backyard hive. The bees raised a nice queen, so today I took the old queen from the bottom box and put her in a little nuc. Removed the screen and reunited everyone.

    My other backyard hive has a 2nd year queen whose bees are not inclined to swarm, winter with a smallish cluster and build up well after I rearrange the brood boxes, pretty gentle.
    So I took the box with the queen and put it above an excluder and above a super. I hope to get a daughter from her , or maybe 2.

  20. #2639
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    elmer_fud - humidity - guess and observation: One hive with the recent low RH and high top temperatures lately while having really high RH all winter, was checked for for suepr status. I call her Super Woman for her performance last year. I was guessing the drop in RH was to "dry and cap" honey. The is exactly what I found - a 90% white capped super of honey which was created in the past two weeks of damp, wet cold weather. This happen with my box insulation still installed to keep supers warm to aid capping. It's a clue and worth pursuing. It will take time to establish but seems logical.

  21. #2640
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    Default Re: Today in the Apiary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Holcombe View Post
    elmer_fud - humidity - guess and observation: One hive with the recent low RH and high top temperatures lately while having really high RH all winter, was checked for for suepr status. I call her Super Woman for her performance last year. I was guessing the drop in RH was to "dry and cap" honey. The is exactly what I found - a 90% white capped super of honey which was created in the past two weeks of damp, wet cold weather. This happen with my box insulation still installed to keep supers warm to aid capping. It's a clue and worth pursuing. It will take time to establish but seems logical.
    That makes sense to me, when the bees are trying to dry the honey there is going to be more moisture in the air, and once it is capped the moisture being added to the hive drops, so the humidity goes down.
    3 Hives, Started in 2017, Learning as I go
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