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Successful Queen Introduction tips.

164K views 145 replies 73 participants last post by  HarryVanderpool 
#1 ·
Have you seen the movie, "Groundhog Day"?
It is a comedy about a fellow that wakes up every day and it is the exact same day as yesterday.

Well it's Groundhog day once again on BeeSource because just like every year, it is story after story after tear-jerking sob story about queens not being accepted.
But for me, as the poster describes their procedure, it is no surprise whatsoever.

First let me say that I have installed several boxes of queens (hundreds) so far this year.
Exactly one (1) has not been accepted.

The first thing that you need to know is that the advice and procedures in almost all of the books is VERY, VERY POOR!
And the information in the books is just repeated, over and over, book after book, never questioned and in my opinion and experience almost assures high failure rate.

Before we talk procedure, let me tell you how VERY GRATEFUL I am for my mentor, Kenny Williams of Oregon that taught me how to have a 98% annual acceptance rate for queen acceptance.
When I was new and asked him questions, he often replied with a question.

Example: "Kenny, should I poke a hole in the candy plug with a nail"?
"Why would you want to do that"? he asks in reply.
"Well, so that the queen can be released sooner" I respond.
"Why would you want the queen to be released sooner than later", he asks?

The answer is: YOU DO NOT want the queen released in any big hurry!!!
What we want is to pull the cork from the candy plug, place the queen cage between frames of mixed brood, or in the case of a package, centered and then LEAVE THE HIVE ALONE so that the queen can emerge in the dark, still and quiet of the hive, having had the extended time release of the candy plug to aquint the bees with her pheromone.

Over and over and over and over I read, "I went back 2 or 4 days later to make sure the queen was released, and now I'm queenless"

Again, WHY are you worried that the queen will not be released? Why?
The queen WILL be released. Stay out of the hive!

If a queen is not released, or is found dead later in the cage, it is for a few reasons:
1) she died
2) your package had a queen in the population
3)she was a spent virgin.

In 25 years of beekeeping, and thousands upon thousands of queen introductions, this has happened maybe twice.

Do you want a 98% queen acceptance rate? Here are some PROVEN tips:

1) Do not poke a hole in the candy plug.
2) Always place the cage between frames of mixed, open brood (where the nurse bees are that are much more inclined to accept and care for her. Re-queen, drone layer replacement, laying worker, or hive start-up; all the same. Place her with brood and nurse bees. In the case of packages, just hang her centered in the hive.
3) Fill the feeder with syrup.
4) Place a piece of masking tape on the corner of the hive with the date she was introduced an DO NOT TOUCH the hive for at least 10 days other than to quietly fill the feeder without shuffling frames or otherwise making a disruption.
5) After 10 or better yet 14 days, gently move through the hive frame by frame until you find the empty cage. Remove the cage and then reverse one frame with the dent left from the cage. They will almost always repair the dent with worker cells if you do this.

So that is it. The problem that I read day after excruciating day her on Beesource is excess, needless micro-managing and cockamamie monkey-motion.
I read books. I have an extensive beekeeping library.
But when it comes to queen introduction, almost all the books give TERRIBLE advice.

I never direct release. (no need to)
No push-in cages.
No monkey-motion.

So here is a report:
Today, I went to a yard of 64 hives that were all hard splits. (Hives directly split in half.)
The splits were made on April 17th. Today is May 8th.
I never returned to the hives after queen intro on April 17th.
ALL of the queens were accepted.
All I did today was to remove the cages and reverse one frame with the dent.

Every year I shake packages for myself to start brand new hives.
Last weekend I queen-checked 32 hives that started as packages on April 5th.
After installing packages, I only returned to the hives on multiple times to quietly slide the lid aside and fill feeders.
ALL of the queens were accepted.
They were accepted using the time honored candy, time-release method and most important; NO DISRUPTION for the initial period.

Ever heard of K.I.S.S.? That stands for "Keep it simple stupid!

I hope that those of you that have been bamboozled by the cockamamie, monkey-motion procedures outlined in "the books" will try our procedure next time.
And I am open for any questions.
:)
 
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#5 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

I just purchase four Russian queens and need to make splits and install them in the splits/ well actually nucs. My friend told me she has 0 success with her Russian Queens being accepted, now I'm bummed, thinking great I've spend the money/time/effort. I'm gonna go outside build the nucs install the queens and they'll be killed. I know kinda a defeatist mentality, not really me normally. But......some people say you have to leave the nuc queenless for 24 hours, is this necessarily true?? Should I keep the queenless nuc closed up until I introduce the queen? I have never quick released so I know I won't do that. would you be will to elaborate a bit on your nuc building process??
 
#6 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Harry, Very good post and one that was needed. All to often those who have read material pass it on weather they have verified it's viability. And if they did and it happened to work they will swear by the most ridicules theory. The internet has opened a new venue of knowledge acquisition. However it has also allowed the opportunity for those who have no clue to pass on the most absurd theories. It's a good thing if it is not true it cannot be posted on the internet.
 
#8 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

No, don't leave them queen less 24 hours, make up your nucs, by the time you're done moving them to their new location, they know they're queen less, put the cages in, close them up and check back in a week or so
 
#10 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Thank you for this post.

I do have a question.

If one has Queens in mating Nucs and wishes to put them in new Nucs or Queenless hives what is the best way? Do you need to purchase Queen cages and put them in with attendants and then close with candy?

Can you use a push in cage over some capped brood...assuming there is some.

If there is no longer capped brood in the receiving hive how best to introduce the new Queen? I will be faced with that situation in about 10 days time.
 
#12 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Thank you for this post.

I do have a question.

If one has Queens in mating Nucs and wishes to put them in new Nucs or Queenless hives what is the best way? Do you need to purchase Queen cages and put them in with attendants and then close with candy?
JzBz cages work well for that purpose. They can have candy installed and they are reusable you can get a carrying case that attendants can be placed in to transport if needed.
 
#13 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

If you are caging a queen and immediately introducing it to another hive without shipping or other long delays then you don't need to worry about attendants. You can reuse most queen cages with a little bit of effort - pull a staple, mix honey and powdered sugar to make stiff candy, stuff it in there and restaple the screen. If you don't have an old cage someone in your club will.

You are in your local club - right?
 
#15 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Harry,
This works with laying workers? That would be great because I was thinking the only way to save a hive with this problem was to combine with a really strong hive. Now I am thinking of putting in a couple of mixed brood frames from another hive and the queen in the cage between them as you suggest. We are in our nectar flow and I didn't want to disturbe a strong hive if I didn't have to.
 
#18 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Good post Harry

I get 95% plus acceptance with a 4-5 day manual release. I find the candy so inconsistent between suppliers, 2 day release is too soon IMO

I agree, minimal disturbance during release and after is key.
This rule especially holds true when inserting cells and mating queens.
 
#19 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Good post Harry

I get 95% plus acceptance with a 4-5 day manual release. I find the candy so inconsistent between suppliers, 2 day release is too soon IMO

I agree, minimal disturbance during release and after is key.
This rule especially holds true when inserting cells and mating queens.
I agree Ian. We haven't done mated queens in years but when we did I was always concerned with the consistency of the candy. I've seen it vary from rock hard to quite soft. It's a good idea to at least probe it with a nail to be sure it's pliable. The manual release Ian speaks of is nice but often not a workable option for commercials.
 
#20 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Except for this commercial. Quick work. We place the cages ontop the cell bars, under the quilt in that nice hive tip rim space. After 4 days Pull the quilt back, check on her viability, pull the cork and poke the candy. She will be out later that day.
$35-40 early queens up here... We spend the time :)
 
#22 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Yes, it works well for us but not for everyone's situation. Lots of commercials keep their numbers up by squeezing in some mated queen nuc making between pollination gigs.
 
#26 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.



As I mentioned, I enjoy starting up a group of brand new hives every year out behind our barn right after tree-fruits.
Usually 32 - 48.
These are not moved until almonds the next spring.
They are started from packages that I shake for myself in most years.
I started 32 on the 5th of April this year.
I did not "check to make sure the queen was released" until the 3rd of May.
All of the queens were accepted as usual.

By using the method described previously, I avoid problems with two very critical time periods in queen introduction:
1) The moment the queen walks out of the cage and DOES NOT GET BALLED due to disruption.
2) Disruption in the hive prior to all forms of brood pheromone are in balance in the hive to avoid the balling impulse.

Once the hive has a balanced bouquet of brood and queen pheromones, the odds of queen balling are minimal.
This does not mean that it can't happen, but it usually does not.



I have 8 pallets behind the barn this year and they are all exactly the same. Beautiful!
Remember: K.I.S.S.!
 
#31 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

What is the zig zag clear stuff with the wood divider In the feeder in the front space of your hives?



As I mentioned, I enjoy starting up a group of brand new hives every year out behind our barn right after tree-fruits.
Usually 32 - 48.
These are not moved until almonds the next spring.
They are started from packages that I shake for myself in most years.
I started 32 on the 5th of April this year.
I did not "check to make sure the queen was released" until the 3rd of May.
All of the queens were accepted as usual.

By using the method described previously, I avoid problems with two very critical time periods in queen introduction:
1) The moment the queen walks out of the cage and DOES NOT GET BALLED due to disruption.
2) Disruption in the hive prior to all forms of brood pheromone are in balance in the hive to avoid the balling impulse.

Once the hive has a balanced bouquet of brood and queen pheromones, the odds of queen balling are minimal.
This does not mean that it can't happen, but it usually does not.



I have 8 pallets behind the barn this year and they are all exactly the same. Beautiful!
Remember: K.I.S.S.!
 
#28 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Harry,

Your equipment looks like it came out of a laboratory not a bee yard. I've seen your other pics over the years and its remarkable how nice you keep your equipment!

Regarding the laying worker reference, I've had VERY poor acceptance rates trying to requeen them, and I'm not sure that even the best technique is going to convince them to accept a new queen. Several years back, I stopped attempting to requeen them and instead combine with another hive. Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?

Another tip when I requeen, I place the cage on the top bars and simply observe for a few minutes how the bees respond to the new queen. I've found that this tells you a lot about their willingness to accept her.
 
#30 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?

I did an experiment last year attempting to requeen a LW hive and a 2nd attempt to
requeen a nuc hive with an expensive queen. Both worked out very well. What I did was
wrap the entire frame of capped broods about to emerge with a large piece of window wire screen. And thumb tact the
screen all over so the bees cannot get out. Then put in about 50 young nurse bees along with the queen inside the wire frame cage.
As more young bees emerged and the queen was laying all the LWs bees disappeared later on. The expensive queen also got accepted and laying successfully.
A small push in cage is not enough in my situation because the more bees that can spread the queen's scent the better her acceptance. So maybe you can try
this method to requeen a LW hive too.
 
#33 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?
I'm sure you know all of this but for those following along:

The first thing is to precisely determine if you have laying workers OR a drone laying queen.
When one starts to pull frames and finds mostly bulletized drone cells all across the faces of the frame, one might think, "laying worker."

I do stumble upon hives like that, numerous times throughout the year and it is almost always a drone laying queen.
I have found one laying worker hive this year and maybe a dozen or three drone layers.
Although the drone cells look very similar, the egg pattern is very different between the two.

When you have a drone laying queen, you will typically find perfectly layed eggs, dead center in the cells just like you would expect from a normal healthy queen. BUT they are all producing drones.
Or you may have a very hard time finding eggs at all.

In the rare case of a laying worker situation, you will normally find multiple eggs per cell and layed all over the place in the cells.

One myth that has been totally debunked is the notion that shaking out a laying worker out on the ground will result in the laying workers NOT being able to return to the hive.
Extensive research was done several years ago in which the workers actively laying were marked.
When shaken out onto the ground across the yard they all returned back to the hive.
My hunch is that the shaking procedure worked many, many times on hives with drone layers that beekeepers THOUGHT were laying worker hives. This reinforced the myth.

It is necessary to either find and remove, or shake out drone layer hives prior to adding a new queen. If you do not do so, you can throw queen after queen at that hive until you empty the bank.

After that, both cases are requeened the same:
1) Move the frames of drone brood as far away in the hive from center as possible.
2) Add at least 2, more if available of mixed brood WITH ADHERING NURSE BEES to the center of the brood nest and install the queen cage with candy exposed between those frames.

One thing that I have witnessed goes against what I was led to believe about laying worker hives:
I was taught buy some pretty smart folks that know bee biology WAY more than I do, that brood pheromone CANCELS laying workers activity.
Then, I would make a repair on such a hive, go back 10 days later and still see drone brood appearing!!???

It wasn't until later that I found, that queens are often accepted and laying right alongside laying workers for a period of time.
The new queen lays and the laying workers continue to lay for a short period of time.
I am sure that in the past I would see the drone brood and not take the time to look and make sure if the new queen was accepted or not.
Since then, I have found that if she was introduced properly, she is usually accepted and unlike what I had been taught; it takes time for the laying workers to disappear.

So the bottom line is that in either situation, we need to SLOW DOWN and take a little more time in our diagnosis.
First, we need to absolutely ascertain laying worker or drone layer.
Secondly, after a laying worker re-queen, we need to take extra time in frame inspection before throwing our hands up in the air and assuming defeat.

In both situations, mixed brood frames and a queen installed between them, utilizing the candy, time release introduction, with AT LEAST 10 days of no disruption is our standard procedure.
 
#35 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Harry do you have any advice on how to introduce caged queens to bees pulled from an, about to swarm hive? I made 3 nucs Wednesday and removed all queen cells from the frames as I put them in the nucs. I put the queens queens in the nucs after they were queenless for about 4 hours. I did not open the candy end of the cage. I checked today and all 3 nucs had made more queen cells. I tore those down. In hindsight I should have waited until tomorrow and then they would likely not have had any larvae to make more queen cells from.

I still have the candy end closed on the cage.

Do you think this install will be successful, or should I make up nucs from a hive not in swarm prep to put the queens in?
 
#36 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Harry: Thanks for a great thread. I've always gone in and pulled the queen cages on day 3, then leave them alone for 7 days. I will be changing the way I introduce queens.

Do you have a preference on the type of Queen cage?

If attendants are in the cage- do you remove them or leave them?
 
#38 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Do you have a preference on the type of Queen cage?

If attendants are in the cage- do you remove them or leave them?
I do have a preference for queen cages, but it is probqably no more than that; personal preference.
I only purchase mated queens in California Mini Cages with the candy tube.

All of my favorite queen producers ship in mini cages with no attendants.
But remember, they come in battery boxes with 1/2 lb of bees or so.

After using mini cages for a long time, three-hole cages look ridiculous and way, way too big!
I can see their use when it is necessary to include attendants in the cage; I get that.
But if I ever got stuck, in a pinch and HAD to buy 3 hole cages I would set down on a bench and transfer them to mini cages prior to banking them.
 
#39 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Brad, it is so funny that you ask because I just got done doing the same rig-a-ma-roll!!
Every year my peach growers start screaming for bees while they are still in almonds.
So as soon as some bees hit the ground in Salem, I pull some directly off the semi and onto a truck to deliver the next day .
Every year these hives get PACKED with bees and honey from a number of sources by the end of pollination.
Some of them were right down to a day or so from issuing swarms; cells EVERYWHERE!!!
No eggs, a skinny, ready to fly queen, etc....
I have divided these hives 3 ways.

But now to answer your question:
I don't have advice just yet.
It appears that the way I am dividing these full-blown swarmy hives works out really well.
It appears to "Knock the swarm right out of them" as well.
But I don't want to post any thing just yet until I have proven, through repeatability, the process for a few more years.
Otherwise I am just another "junk on the internet" poster child.
 
#43 ·
Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

Brad, it is so funny that you ask because I just got done doing the same rig-a-ma-roll!!
Every year my peach growers start screaming for bees while they are still in almonds.
So as soon as some bees hit the ground in Salem, I pull some directly off the semi and onto a truck to deliver the next day .
Every year these hives get PACKED with bees and honey from a number of sources by the end of pollination.
Some of them were right down to a day or so from issuing swarms; cells EVERYWHERE!!!
No eggs, a skinny, ready to fly queen, etc....
I have divided these hives 3 ways.

But now to answer your question:
I don't have advice just yet.
It appears that the way I am dividing these full-blown swarmy hives works out really well.
It appears to "Knock the swarm right out of them" as well.
But I don't want to post any thing just yet until I have proven, through repeatability, the process for a few more years.
Otherwise I am just another "junk on the internet" poster child.
Thanks for the response. I ended up tearing down the cells again yesterday. There was only one more built in one nuc. I finally found some 1/8" hardware cloth and made large push in queen cages. I turned the queen and attendants loose in the cage over capped brood and honey. I'm going to leave them be for a week and see how that goes.
 
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