Successful Queen Introduction tips. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I agree Ian. We haven't done mated queens in years...
    Do you requeen with cells then?
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Yes, it works well for us but not for everyone's situation. Lots of commercials keep their numbers up by squeezing in some mated queen nuc making between pollination gigs.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Thank you Harry, This is a supreme thread
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  5. #24
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    Central CA.
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I was always concerned with the consistency of the candy. I've seen it vary from rock hard to quite soft. It's a good idea to at least probe it with a nail to be sure it's pliable.
    Yep

    Sometimes hard as nails

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer Jim View Post
    Yep

    Sometimes hard as nails
    This presents no problem.
    After the candy is heated to the brood nest temperature, it softens right up.
    The queen WILL be released.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.



    As I mentioned, I enjoy starting up a group of brand new hives every year out behind our barn right after tree-fruits.
    Usually 32 - 48.
    These are not moved until almonds the next spring.
    They are started from packages that I shake for myself in most years.
    I started 32 on the 5th of April this year.
    I did not "check to make sure the queen was released" until the 3rd of May.
    All of the queens were accepted as usual.

    By using the method described previously, I avoid problems with two very critical time periods in queen introduction:
    1) The moment the queen walks out of the cage and DOES NOT GET BALLED due to disruption.
    2) Disruption in the hive prior to all forms of brood pheromone are in balance in the hive to avoid the balling impulse.

    Once the hive has a balanced bouquet of brood and queen pheromones, the odds of queen balling are minimal.
    This does not mean that it can't happen, but it usually does not.



    I have 8 pallets behind the barn this year and they are all exactly the same. Beautiful!
    Remember: K.I.S.S.!
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    This presents no problem.
    After the candy is heated to the brood nest temperature, it softens right up.
    The queen WILL be released.
    Most queen suppliers have their candy formulations down pretty good but I have seen candy hard as a rock even after being at queen bank temps. I had an experience a number of years ago where some queens hadn't been released 3 weeks later. It can happen. It's pretty easy to probe your candy just to make sure you know what you've got.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  9. #28
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    Suffolk, VA
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    4,211

    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Harry,

    Your equipment looks like it came out of a laboratory not a bee yard. I've seen your other pics over the years and its remarkable how nice you keep your equipment!

    Regarding the laying worker reference, I've had VERY poor acceptance rates trying to requeen them, and I'm not sure that even the best technique is going to convince them to accept a new queen. Several years back, I stopped attempting to requeen them and instead combine with another hive. Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?

    Another tip when I requeen, I place the cage on the top bars and simply observe for a few minutes how the bees respond to the new queen. I've found that this tells you a lot about their willingness to accept her.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  10. #29
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    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    I also spray the hive with a diluted HBH mix. Instead of smoke, it keeps the hive calm and out of that defensive mood and helps merge new scents within the hive

  11. #30
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    7,861

    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?

    I did an experiment last year attempting to requeen a LW hive and a 2nd attempt to
    requeen a nuc hive with an expensive queen. Both worked out very well. What I did was
    wrap the entire frame of capped broods about to emerge with a large piece of window wire screen. And thumb tact the
    screen all over so the bees cannot get out. Then put in about 50 young nurse bees along with the queen inside the wire frame cage.
    As more young bees emerged and the queen was laying all the LWs bees disappeared later on. The expensive queen also got accepted and laying successfully.
    A small push in cage is not enough in my situation because the more bees that can spread the queen's scent the better her acceptance. So maybe you can try
    this method to requeen a LW hive too.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  12. #31
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    Vancouver, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    What is the zig zag clear stuff with the wood divider In the feeder in the front space of your hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post


    As I mentioned, I enjoy starting up a group of brand new hives every year out behind our barn right after tree-fruits.
    Usually 32 - 48.
    These are not moved until almonds the next spring.
    They are started from packages that I shake for myself in most years.
    I started 32 on the 5th of April this year.
    I did not "check to make sure the queen was released" until the 3rd of May.
    All of the queens were accepted as usual.

    By using the method described previously, I avoid problems with two very critical time periods in queen introduction:
    1) The moment the queen walks out of the cage and DOES NOT GET BALLED due to disruption.
    2) Disruption in the hive prior to all forms of brood pheromone are in balance in the hive to avoid the balling impulse.

    Once the hive has a balanced bouquet of brood and queen pheromones, the odds of queen balling are minimal.
    This does not mean that it can't happen, but it usually does not.



    I have 8 pallets behind the barn this year and they are all exactly the same. Beautiful!
    Remember: K.I.S.S.!
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Yes, it works well for us but not for everyone's situation. Lots of commercials keep their numbers up by squeezing in some mated queen nuc making between pollination gigs.
    So, you just put a ripe cell in the queenright hive? Where in the hive and when in the season do you do it?
    Since '09-75H-T-Z6b

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Is there anything else you recommend for a laying worker?
    I'm sure you know all of this but for those following along:

    The first thing is to precisely determine if you have laying workers OR a drone laying queen.
    When one starts to pull frames and finds mostly bulletized drone cells all across the faces of the frame, one might think, "laying worker."

    I do stumble upon hives like that, numerous times throughout the year and it is almost always a drone laying queen.
    I have found one laying worker hive this year and maybe a dozen or three drone layers.
    Although the drone cells look very similar, the egg pattern is very different between the two.

    When you have a drone laying queen, you will typically find perfectly layed eggs, dead center in the cells just like you would expect from a normal healthy queen. BUT they are all producing drones.
    Or you may have a very hard time finding eggs at all.

    In the rare case of a laying worker situation, you will normally find multiple eggs per cell and layed all over the place in the cells.

    One myth that has been totally debunked is the notion that shaking out a laying worker out on the ground will result in the laying workers NOT being able to return to the hive.
    Extensive research was done several years ago in which the workers actively laying were marked.
    When shaken out onto the ground across the yard they all returned back to the hive.
    My hunch is that the shaking procedure worked many, many times on hives with drone layers that beekeepers THOUGHT were laying worker hives. This reinforced the myth.

    It is necessary to either find and remove, or shake out drone layer hives prior to adding a new queen. If you do not do so, you can throw queen after queen at that hive until you empty the bank.

    After that, both cases are requeened the same:
    1) Move the frames of drone brood as far away in the hive from center as possible.
    2) Add at least 2, more if available of mixed brood WITH ADHERING NURSE BEES to the center of the brood nest and install the queen cage with candy exposed between those frames.

    One thing that I have witnessed goes against what I was led to believe about laying worker hives:
    I was taught buy some pretty smart folks that know bee biology WAY more than I do, that brood pheromone CANCELS laying workers activity.
    Then, I would make a repair on such a hive, go back 10 days later and still see drone brood appearing!!???

    It wasn't until later that I found, that queens are often accepted and laying right alongside laying workers for a period of time.
    The new queen lays and the laying workers continue to lay for a short period of time.
    I am sure that in the past I would see the drone brood and not take the time to look and make sure if the new queen was accepted or not.
    Since then, I have found that if she was introduced properly, she is usually accepted and unlike what I had been taught; it takes time for the laying workers to disappear.

    So the bottom line is that in either situation, we need to SLOW DOWN and take a little more time in our diagnosis.
    First, we need to absolutely ascertain laying worker or drone layer.
    Secondly, after a laying worker re-queen, we need to take extra time in frame inspection before throwing our hands up in the air and assuming defeat.

    In both situations, mixed brood frames and a queen installed between them, utilizing the candy, time release introduction, with AT LEAST 10 days of no disruption is our standard procedure.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  15. #34
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    Apr 2005
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    1,779

    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by WBVC View Post
    What is the zig zag clear stuff with the wood divider In the feeder in the front space of your hives?

    Aluminum window screen that is cut at 24"long and the depth of the feeder, folded.
    Cut a slot in the middle just enough to allow a wooden block to be nailed in place to keep the feeder from closing in.
    The screen acts as a great ladder to prevent drowning and also as a baffle to minimise splashing if the feeders were filled prior to moving, (heaven forbid!).
    Some folks place the feeders toward the middle of the pallet so that they can just slide the lid to fill.
    I place mine to the outside to allow clustering toward the middle of the pallet in the winter and the added dead air space as insulation as shown.
    Both rationals have merit.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  16. #35
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    Marshall county, AL
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    3,404

    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Harry do you have any advice on how to introduce caged queens to bees pulled from an, about to swarm hive? I made 3 nucs Wednesday and removed all queen cells from the frames as I put them in the nucs. I put the queens queens in the nucs after they were queenless for about 4 hours. I did not open the candy end of the cage. I checked today and all 3 nucs had made more queen cells. I tore those down. In hindsight I should have waited until tomorrow and then they would likely not have had any larvae to make more queen cells from.

    I still have the candy end closed on the cage.

    Do you think this install will be successful, or should I make up nucs from a hive not in swarm prep to put the queens in?
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  17. #36
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    Squaw Valley, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Harry: Thanks for a great thread. I've always gone in and pulled the queen cages on day 3, then leave them alone for 7 days. I will be changing the way I introduce queens.

    Do you have a preference on the type of Queen cage?

    If attendants are in the cage- do you remove them or leave them?

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Will an excluder segregate a drone laying Queen the same as any other Queen or is she small enough to get through?

    If she is too large to get through if one divided the hive by using Queen excluders then:

    If it is Drone laying Queen the eggs should be restricted to the Queen area
    If it is laying inc workers would eggs and brood appear throughout the hive regardless of the excluders?

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    I'm sure you know all of this but for those following along:

    The first thing is to precisely determine if you have laying workers OR a drone laying queen.
    When one starts to pull frames and finds mostly bulletized drone cells all across the faces of the frame, one might think, "laying worker."

    I do stumble upon hives like that, numerous times throughout the year and it is almost always a drone laying queen.
    I have found one laying worker hive this year and maybe a dozen or three drone layers.
    Although the drone cells look very similar, the egg pattern is very different between the two.

    When you have a drone laying queen, you will typically find perfectly layed eggs, dead center in the cells just like you would expect from a normal healthy queen. BUT they are all producing drones.
    Or you may have a very hard time finding eggs at all.

    In the rare case of a laying worker situation, you will normally find multiple eggs per cell and layed all over the place in the cells.

    One myth that has been totally debunked is the notion that shaking out a laying worker out on the ground will result in the laying workers NOT being able to return to the hive.
    Extensive research was done several years ago in which the workers actively laying were marked.
    When shaken out onto the ground across the yard they all returned back to the hive.
    My hunch is that the shaking procedure worked many, many times on hives with drone layers that beekeepers THOUGHT were laying worker hives. This reinforced the myth.

    It is necessary to either find and remove, or shake out drone layer hives prior to adding a new queen. If you do not do so, you can throw queen after queen at that hive until you empty the bank.

    After that, both cases are requeened the same:
    1) Move the frames of drone brood as far away in the hive from center as possible.
    2) Add at least 2, more if available of mixed brood WITH ADHERING NURSE BEES to the center of the brood nest and install the queen cage with candy exposed between those frames.

    One thing that I have witnessed goes against what I was led to believe about laying worker hives:
    I was taught buy some pretty smart folks that know bee biology WAY more than I do, that brood pheromone CANCELS laying workers activity.
    Then, I would make a repair on such a hive, go back 10 days later and still see drone brood appearing!!???

    It wasn't until later that I found, that queens are often accepted and laying right alongside laying workers for a period of time.
    The new queen lays and the laying workers continue to lay for a short period of time.
    I am sure that in the past I would see the drone brood and not take the time to look and make sure if the new queen was accepted or not.
    Since then, I have found that if she was introduced properly, she is usually accepted and unlike what I had been taught; it takes time for the laying workers to disappear.

    So the bottom line is that in either situation, we need to SLOW DOWN and take a little more time in our diagnosis.
    First, we need to absolutely ascertain laying worker or drone layer.
    Secondly, after a laying worker re-queen, we need to take extra time in frame inspection before throwing our hands up in the air and assuming defeat.

    In both situations, mixed brood frames and a queen installed between them, utilizing the candy, time release introduction, with AT LEAST 10 days of no disruption is our standard procedure.
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  19. #38
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    Apr 2005
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by MTN-Bees View Post
    Do you have a preference on the type of Queen cage?

    If attendants are in the cage- do you remove them or leave them?
    I do have a preference for queen cages, but it is probqably no more than that; personal preference.
    I only purchase mated queens in California Mini Cages with the candy tube.

    All of my favorite queen producers ship in mini cages with no attendants.
    But remember, they come in battery boxes with 1/2 lb of bees or so.

    After using mini cages for a long time, three-hole cages look ridiculous and way, way too big!
    I can see their use when it is necessary to include attendants in the cage; I get that.
    But if I ever got stuck, in a pinch and HAD to buy 3 hole cages I would set down on a bench and transfer them to mini cages prior to banking them.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  20. #39
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    Apr 2005
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    Brad, it is so funny that you ask because I just got done doing the same rig-a-ma-roll!!
    Every year my peach growers start screaming for bees while they are still in almonds.
    So as soon as some bees hit the ground in Salem, I pull some directly off the semi and onto a truck to deliver the next day .
    Every year these hives get PACKED with bees and honey from a number of sources by the end of pollination.
    Some of them were right down to a day or so from issuing swarms; cells EVERYWHERE!!!
    No eggs, a skinny, ready to fly queen, etc....
    I have divided these hives 3 ways.

    But now to answer your question:
    I don't have advice just yet.
    It appears that the way I am dividing these full-blown swarmy hives works out really well.
    It appears to "Knock the swarm right out of them" as well.
    But I don't want to post any thing just yet until I have proven, through repeatability, the process for a few more years.
    Otherwise I am just another "junk on the internet" poster child.
    I have exactly ONE more hive than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond dispute!

  21. #40
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    7,861

    Default Re: Sucsessful Queen Introduction tips.

    I don't want to be another "junk on the internet" poster child either. So from what I have understand so far about the drone laying queen, she is just like a regular normal mated queen. Her size is the same as any average laying queen. It is her big thorax that prevented her from going through the queen excluder. Even a newly hatched virgin queen with the normal thorax size cannot go through a queen excluder.

    "Will an excluder segregate a drone laying Queen the same as any other Queen or is she small enough to get through?"

    So the answer is no, she cannot go through the excluder because her thorax is in the way. She will not shrink down or somehow get smaller to get through the excluder.

    "If she is too large to get through if one divided the hive by using Queen excluders then:
    If it is Drone laying Queen the eggs should be restricted to the Queen area"

    Yes, she should be restricted to a particular area divided by the excluder.

    "If it is laying inc workers would eggs and brood appear throughout the hive regardless of the excluders?"

    Yes, because the LWs have a smaller thorax they can squeeze through the excluder. So using one will not prevent them going from one frame to another to lay. A LW is the size of a big fat nurse bee that has never fly outside the hive before. Since the excluder cannot restrict them you should see eggs and broods appear through out the hive.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

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