Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    If I had any I would surely do so. I take the time since i'm still small and find a good pollen comb from the other hives or use a pollen sub if one cannot be found. This year I forsee myself with a good Sundance Pollen trap on one of the hives.
    Thomas Bartram

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot1d View Post
    I thought you wanted no other brood or eggs.
    Me too. So a frame of open brood goes in the cell builder??? Not an empty frame they can draw out?
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bee View Post
    Me too. So a frame of open brood goes in the cell builder??? Not an empty frame they can draw out?
    You sure don't need any brood in a swarm box to initially build cells and open brood would actually be detrimental. When you do want brood is to hold bees if the cell box is placed above an excluder as a finisher.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    You sure don't need any brood in a swarm box to initially build cells and open brood would actually be detrimental. When you do want brood is to hold bees if the cell box is placed above an excluder as a finisher.
    thats what i do with my cloake board. a couple of frames of capped/emerging brood to encourage plenty of nurse bees in the upper builder/finisher box, and a frame of open brood that is removed when the grafts are first placed in order to channel all available jelly to the grafts.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    thats what i do with my cloake board. a couple of frames of capped/emerging brood to encourage plenty of nurse bees in the upper builder/finisher box, and a frame of open brood that is removed when the grafts are first placed in order to channel all available jelly to the grafts.
    Yup, in a Cloake board setup you need to rotate brood upstairs about every 10 days to insure that the nurse bees don't abandon the cells on a cold night. It's a bit of a balancing act getting some open brood upstairs but too much can be a detriment to cell building.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    @Jim Lyon, okay I think I've got it now. The open brood is put in the box prior to the queen cups to keep the nurse bees where you want them. Or do I have that all wrong?
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    I didn't read far enough down. Thanks for the reply squarepeg.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    I grafted today and did not have any pollen to rub in, so I put a pollen pattie on the top of the frames. I had some half frames of pollen I put adjacent to the grafted frame. I have seen Palmer do the pollen rub and will be trapping pollen this year to copy that next spring. I just added an empty frame to the outside edge of the box.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by kramerbryan View Post
    I grafted today and did not have any pollen to rub in, so I put a pollen pattie on the top of the frames. I had some half frames of pollen I put adjacent to the grafted frame. I have seen Palmer do the pollen rub and will be trapping pollen this year to copy that next spring. I just added an empty frame to the outside edge of the box.
    michael is placing 60+ grafts at the same time. that's a whole lot of royal jelly needed so he has maximum pollen in place. i'm putting in 20 hoping for 15 and those partial frames of pollen like you describe are what i have used so far and they have appeared to been adequate.

    how many cells did you place in your builder today?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by kramerbryan View Post
    You will also want an open frame up top otherwise all of your queen cells will be joined together with wax. They need a place to build.
    Yes, I missed that.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    i pretty much follow this variation on the cloake board method:

    http://threeriversbeekeepers.com/doc...oardMethod.pdf

    the paper also talks about banking queens but i don't bank any myself. all cells have been going into five frame nuc with three frames of bees and resources and two empty frames for expansion.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    And don't forget to feed them too when they are building these cells.
    Many hungry mouth to feed them all.
    The cloak board method makes my mind spinning from opening and closing all these
    exit and entrance at a certain day for manipulation.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    And don't forget to feed them too when they are building these cells.
    Many hungry mouth to feed them all.
    The cloak board method makes my mind spinning from opening and closing all these
    exit and entrance at a certain day for manipulation.
    That link has lots of good info but I think it is unduly complicated. I use the Cloake board method a lot and don't do nearly that much manipulation. The basics are a very strong and well fed double able to, in effect, maintain 2 seperate brood nests with a primary entrance above the board to catch enough field force for the upper box to be crowded. When cell raising conditions are good the board need only be put in a few minutes before placing the grafts in.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    I like a 10 frame starter - after 48 hours you move the whole thing on top of a queen excluder on a queen right single.
    What an awesome idea! I think you just changed the way I raise queens this season.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    jim, since the double i was using wasn't exactly 'packed' with bees i had hoped that the extra manipulations would temporarily boost the population in the upper box. i can see how it wouldn't really matter that much if the hive was breaming over with bees.

    adam, interesting that you can just place the starter over the finisher without newspaper like that. does anyone else do it this way?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot1d View Post
    Interesting, I thought they thought they weren't queen right but your saying they know that they have a queen and will continue building the cells anyway.
    They are queenless for the first 24-48hours and queen-right when you put them on top of the single.


    Quote Originally Posted by Margot1d View Post
    Is OB open brood? If so, why? I thought you wanted no other brood or eggs.
    Yes OB is open brood. You don't want eggs, but a frame of open brood will have nurse bees attached ready to feed your grafts and help attract more nurse bees to the grafting frame. I made a mistake in my original frame order post as I missed a frame of foundation. The frame of foundation will help keep them from building comb on your grafting frame. It should have been something like:

    H-F-CB-CB-P-GF-OB-CB-CB-H/P

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot1d View Post
    So they are okay without extra ventilation?
    There are free flying through this whole process.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    adam, interesting that you can just place the starter over the finisher without newspaper like that. does anyone else do it this way?
    I don't think a sheet of newspaper would hurt - thought you might want a to entrance of some type for ventilation. Basically when you setup the starter any foragers fly back to their donor hives and you are left with a box full of nurse bees and emerging brood.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Reading through this thread is helpful. I may have it very wrong but the basis of cell starters/finishers etc seems to be manipulating conditions to what happens when bees make emergency cells...except the beek chooses the larvae they will use not the bees.

    So....

    One picks a hive to graft from

    Chooses or sets up a hive to grow the grafts in. If using a 2 box set up one could confine the Queen below an excluder, move capped brood and some open brood above the excluder. Then wait a week or so the capped brood can emerge and the younger larvae get beyond the qc stage. When you are ready to graft put something over the excluder to divide the hive. Shake in more nurse bees into the top box if you feel the need. Check for any missed qc starts. Make certain you now have honey, pollen and open frame in the top box. Leave a cental hole for the graft frame with pollen close by. Have an entrance for both the top and bottom box.

    Do your graft, place your graft bar in the center slot. Put on feed and close the box.

    After 48 hours check for qc starts. Check there are no qc in the top or bottom box.

    Remove the board dividing the 2 hives but leave the qc in place. Have a frame of open brood...no eggs or day old larvae, no extra qc...in the top to hold more nurse bees in this area. A day before calculated qc emergence move the qc to mating boxes.

    This system really doesn't seem so much different from making sustainable splits. Except in that you leave eggs and young larvae in the top box for the bees to choose the qc larvae and you move the top box off the bottom box just before the qc is ready to emerge making a new colony from the first.

    All this seems to be us taking advantage of the bees natural instincts.

    Please correct me quickly if my thoughts are nonsence!
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    jim, will it works if I only direct the foragers into the top
    box where the grafted cells are at? And at the same time closed
    the bottom entrance leaving a 2nd exit behind the bottom box.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Easiest type of cell builder for a beginner

    Peg - Thanks for posting the three rivers link to Dr. Cobey's paper on Harry Cloake's Method. I usually combine the best of Cloake's Method with Michael Palmer / Brother Adam's Method.

    Although the separate, queenless Cell Starter Colony CAN be made up much smaller, I don't see the benefit of doing so in a 5-frame NOR a 10-frame box. Michael / Adam's method is all about maximizing Royal Jelly production, so 2 or 3 boxes boosted with 8 to 10 frames of imported capped brood 10 1/2 days before grafting is a better idea.

    You're going to be making a HUGE Cell Finisher colony anyways, so might as well make it a combined Starter / Finisher.

    The Cloake Board really simplifies control over exactly when they are queenless vs. queenright, it does not make them more complicated, and it saves my back. Michael does not use a Cloake Board because he wants more control over his Cell Builder.

    The same level of control can also be accomplished WITH a Cloake Board, and in doing so, less disturbance of the hive is done, possibly avoiding a bump with sensitive queen cells present. The difference? If you have a Cloake Board, you can use it, but you don't have to. I usually use the Cloake Board on a 4- or 5-box tall colony, or Michael Palmer / Brother Adam's method on a 3-box-tall colony. (I newspaper combine colonies to prepare for my Cell Builder Colonies).
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 03-23-2015 at 01:54 PM.

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