Will Politics Drive the Science? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    In 1984 time magazine cried out global warming would have 3 feet of water in the streets of New York city. This years person of the year a teen who can parrot the political left wishes on climate control. Science is completely for sale. Political groups hire scientist to come up with the answers they want to push their addenda not the truth! Scientist who refuse to play are driven out of their fields of study and carriers.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbear View Post
    In 1984 time magazine cried out global warming would have 3 feet of water in the streets of New York city. This years person of the year a teen who can parrot the political left wishes on climate control. Science is completely for sale. Political groups hire scientist to come up with the answers they want to push their addenda not the truth! Scientist who refuse to play are driven out of their fields of study and carriers.

    Well there are some bad eggs and it is always possible to find some examples of agenda driven misinformation. There are rogue actors in every profession but that does not equate to all professionals being rogues.

    Which came first the chicken or the egg?
    Frank

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbear View Post
    In 1984 time magazine cried out global warming would have 3 feet of water in the streets of New York city. This years person of the year a teen who can parrot the political left wishes on climate control. Science is completely for sale. Political groups hire scientist to come up with the answers they want to push their addenda not the truth! Scientist who refuse to play are driven out of their fields of study and carriers.
    I would like to see the cite for that Time Magazine article. I couldn't find it anyway. The last I knew climate change deniers were promoting the hoax that Time predicted a new ice age. I don't think Greta Thunberg parrots her parents or any other person. Disagree with her if you want, but she is obviously a very intelligent, independent young woman. J

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Yep next time I need expert advice I am sure to ask some 15 year old skull full of mush to share some of their lifetime experience, so I am not surprised that many beekeepers with many years of experience no longer post here.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Politics does drive the science and the ones that shout the loudest get the most attention until common sense and undeniable facts get in the way. Eggs are bad, no eggs are good. Coffee is bad, no coffee is good in moderation. Red wine is bad, no wine is good, also in moderation. Meat is bad for you, no meat is...uh, still working on that one as evidenced by so many mal nourished vegans still out there. Point is, a lot of what we understand as science today is just so much garbage tomorrow.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Hey guys and gals, I just realized this thread is in Bee Forum so I'm moving it over to Coffee Klatch where discussions of this nature belong.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivej View Post
    I would like to see the cite for that Time Magazine article. I couldn't find it anyway. The last I knew climate change deniers were promoting the hoax that Time predicted a new ice age.
    There are hoax Time cover articles floating around on the internet. Makes it difficult sometimes to sift through all the garbage and find the truth. Time and Newsweek both published articles in the 70's discussing the possibility of a coming Ice Age. They were not cover articles, but were in their publications.

    I was a young adult back then and vividly remember all the chatter about a possible Ice Age on the horizon. I don't think it was the prevalent thinking among experts at the time regarding climate change but it certainly was bantered about enough to make an impression on me.

    http://content.time.com/time/magazin...944914,00.html


    http://www.denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf
    To everything there is a season....

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Nature has been cyclic over time without question. It is a fact I no longer can ice skate on my local salt water pond - not because of my age. I know science does not have all the answers today - a lot of "learning" going on with some great tools. I also know that humans are not in balance with nature (subjective). We continue to burn fossil fuels mined from underground locations and return carbon into the air system at an un-natural rate. It is likely we can only generalize the system effects today but I think you can bet the house that it is not making the planet colder. The wild card - fusion power, ITER, etc. - seems to be ignored by all.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    I have noticed that most people rate the IQ of other people by whether or not, they agree with them.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    Meat is bad for you, no meat is...uh, still working on that one as evidenced by so many mal nourished vegans still out there.
    Still new here so intentionally staying out of politics, climate change, etc... Curious if there are any vegan beekeepers out there? A small percentage of vegans do not consider honey taboo, so perhaps they raise their own? Should be a good number of vegetarian beeks since they eat one or more of dairy, fish or eggs otherwise they would be vegan.

    But yes, got to get that B12 from somewhere.

    Oh, wife's favorite quote which I get to use more often than she does because I'm the forum junky.

    "Remember, moderation in all things, except, perhaps, dietary diversity!"
    James A. Duke

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWPalmer View Post
    I would like to think that it is because they are busy taking care of their bees, but I doubt this is so. It would be inappropriate for me to speculate on the real reasons. Instead, I want to thank the guys and gals that continue to offer their expertise and contribute to this forum on a regular basis.
    You are a true professional, diplomatic, polite, everything I'm not, so....
    Remember a couple years ago when Barry sold this website to Vertical Scope? Remember that thread about how traffic to Beesource.com was plummeting, and why?
    (This thread.) I told everybody what happened to every other forum that Vertical Scope took over, and we are seeing it here now. If you can break into the world's top 100,000 sites, you are doing well. Beesource's global Alexa traffic rank was 106,673 when Barry sold out. Within 90 days it dropped like 60,000 places, it's now at 380,845 and still dropping.

    Here is an example of the effects of the drop in traffic:

    Two years ago, I started a thread offering free Golden Rain Tree seeds.......it got 12,000 views in the first couple months and I sent out dozens and dozens of packages all around the country. Back in August of this year I did it again, it's gotten only 2,000 views. Earlier this month I started a thread offering free BeeBee Tree seeds, which has only gotten 146 views so far.

    Fewer and fewer experienced old timers post here anymore, and the drop in traffic and posts means fewer and fewer new folks find their way here.

    Cheers to the mods and good posters who have hung in and done their best, but, in my opinion......well, I will stop at presenting the facts and keep my opinion to myself.
    8 years, 30 colonies, no chemical treatments

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivej View Post
    I don't think Greta Thunberg parrots her parents or any other person. Disagree with her if you want, but she is obviously a very intelligent, independent young woman. J
    I instinctively dislike her behaviour - but I have no obvious reason for such dislike - and so I've had to ask myself "why ?".

    The reason I've come up with is that she's not a climate scientist, and is not championing her own work (which would be legitimate). She's an activist, championing the work of others and, using modern terminology, has very quickly become 'an influencer'. That's my beef with her and those who have assisted her to reach this current level of public exposure. Whether what she says is correct or not isn't important (for me) - it's her unchallenged influence other large numbers of unquestioning others which is the basis for my dislike of her very public behaviour.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by c-bees View Post
    Remember a couple years ago when Barry sold this website to Vertical Scope?
    I think this was a major contributor to the decline in activity. Maybe not so much the fault of Vertical Scope, but more so from the loss of Barry. He developed hundreds of relationships with members over the years and he had a close "personal" following within the framework of BeeSource. Those who have been active here for more than 10 years know exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who wished, had access to the creator and manager of this site. With his exit a vacuum was created which nothing else could fill, and that took it's toll.

    Left with a daunting challenge I want to thank all of the moderators for doubling down and doing everything possible to keep this site going. It might not be the same as the good old days, but it is still a good resource and a great place to "hang out" online.
    To everything there is a season....

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    I instinctively dislike her behaviour - but I have no obvious reason for such dislike - and so I've had to ask myself "why ?".

    The reason I've come up with is that she's not a climate scientist, and is not championing her own work (which would be legitimate). She's an activist, championing the work of others and, using modern terminology, has very quickly become 'an influencer'. That's my beef with her and those who have assisted her to reach this current level of public exposure. Whether what she says is correct or not isn't important (for me) - it's her unchallenged influence other large numbers of unquestioning others which is the basis for my dislike of her very public behaviour.
    LJ
    She is, however, an indicator that something MUST change.
    Those at the top (politically and economically) must change something for things to resolve in logical, manageable, and productive manner - beneficial to everyone.

    The people on the top (politically and economically) refused to change - eruption of 1917 happened in Russia instigated by "influencers" of those times.
    The "top" refused to work with the "influencers" and instead persecuted them.
    Guess what happened next.
    Pretty soon the persecuted became the persecutors.

    Totally unqualified initially people took over the administration AND they learned how to fly while already flying AND they did well, after few bumps.

    Those older and the "experienced" scoffed at the newbees - until they themselves became irrelevant OR worse.

    So I would not discount the situation.
    I find myself constantly learning from the kids (and the kids' books too).

    Similar thing happened in France in 1789.
    There are many other examples.
    Last edited by GregV; 12-30-2019 at 08:27 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    I thing Greg has some valid points.

    When it becomes obvious to the underprivileged that the common way of life is not arranged for their benefit they push back in ways that set everyone back. I read one author that stated there was virtually no example in recorded history where the privileleged elite ever backed willingly away from the cliff. They fail to see the writing on the wall till there are heads on pitchforks!
    Frank

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I thing Greg has some valid points.

    When it becomes obvious to the underprivileged that the common way of life is not arranged for their benefit they push back in ways that set everyone back. I read one author that stated there was virtually no example in recorded history where the privileleged elite ever backed willingly away from the cliff. They fail to see the writing on the wall till there are heads on pitchforks!
    Meanwhile,
    http://edition.cnn.com/style/article...ers/index.html

    Not so sure of the WWIII worthiness, but these shelters look pretty effective to hide away from the hungry, thirsty, and angry crowds when the next bubble bursts.
    Surely Vlad has a nice one and Donald is just dying of the envy.
    Last edited by GregV; 12-30-2019 at 10:25 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    I think this was a major contributor to the decline in activity. Maybe not so much the fault of Vertical Scope, but more so from the loss of Barry. He developed hundreds of relationships with members over the years and he had a close "personal" following within the framework of BeeSource. Those who have been active here for more than 10 years know exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who wished, had access to the creator and manager of this site. With his exit a vacuum was created which nothing else could fill, and that took it's toll.

    Left with a daunting challenge I want to thank all of the moderators for doubling down and doing everything possible to keep this site going. It might not be the same as the good old days, but it is still a good resource and a great place to "hang out" online.
    Well said. I still participate but Barry's exit fundamentally changed Beesource in a lot of intangible ways
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I thing Greg has some valid points.

    When it becomes obvious to the underprivileged that the common way of life is not arranged for their benefit they push back in ways that set everyone back. I read one author that stated there was virtually no example in recorded history where the privileleged elite ever backed willingly away from the cliff. They fail to see the writing on the wall till there are heads on pitchforks!
    "We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed."

    -- Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    She's an activist, championing the work of others and, using modern terminology, has very quickly become 'an influencer'. That's my beef with her and those who have assisted her to reach this current level of public exposure. Whether what she says is correct or not isn't important (for me) - it's her unchallenged influence other large numbers of unquestioning others which is the basis for my dislike of her very public behaviour.
    I have never heard a word that Greta Thunberg has uttered nor read anything she has written. I see her as only a symbolic messenger -- apparently quite effective -- for a cause. Because that cause purports to irreparably harm future generations, her youth is her drawing card.

    However, I don't share your contempt of her merely because she is an activist. I think activism can be noble.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Will Politics Drive the Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by psm1212 View Post
    I don't share your contempt of her merely because she is an activist. I think activism can be noble.
    Contempt ? That word came from you, not from me. Also - I specifically have not criticised her (as a person). For she is but an innocent - a product of the media. It is the media who have been responsible for raising her profile from that of a young schoolgirl with idealistic passions to that of an international icon. For them, Thunberg is a good story, and one which will run and run.

    The weight of responsibility which this young woman will now carry will be enormous - many thousands of youngsters will be looking to her (as a high profile spokesperson) to provide some kind of result. In particular, the BBC have described her position as being that of a 'lightning-rod' which will attract hatred towards the movement which she has come to represent.
    These are burdens which no sixteen year old ought to be expected to carry.

    That you see personal contempt where there is only dislike for a person's activities demonstrates the kind of bias which can now be expected - where any moderate criticism will be re-fashioned into extremist 'them and us' rhetoric.

    Her father is worried about what the future holds for her - I share that concern.
    LJ

    PS. If anyone else considers activism to be a 'noble' pursuit - suggest a reading of Eric Hoffer's 'The True Believer' (thoughts on the nature of mass movements) - an example:
    For men to plunge headlong into an undertaking of vast change, they must be intensely discontented yet not destitute, and they must have the feeling that by the possession of some potent doctrine, infallible leader or some new technique they have access to a source of irresistible power. They must also have an extravagant conception of the prospects and potentialities of the future. Finally, they must be wholly ignorant of the difficulties involved in their vast undertaking. Experience is a handicap. The men who started the French Revolution were wholly without political experience. The same is true of the Bolsheviks, Nazis and the revolutionaries in Asia.
    .
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

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