How to develop a treatment free apiary? - Page 2
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,170

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ToeOfDog View Post
    The point is Squarepeg and Fusion Power are the early, early pioneers of SC in this state...
    fusion power is sc, and runs 11 frames in the broodnest. most of my comb is on the rite cell that i started with, but i am gradually working in foundationless frames to get clean natural cell for my deep brood boxes.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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  3. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    53,858

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    "There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will."--Epictetus
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  4. #23
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    "There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will."--Epictetus
    How do you know which things are beyond that power and which are not, unless you take the time to find out?

    If you really want something to happen, you want to find out about those things that can make a difference.
    Last edited by mike bispham; 02-19-2015 at 06:38 AM.
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  5. #24
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregondo View Post
    Don't borrow trouble with "what if" or "they might" type of worries.

    Just invest thinking in the challenges you actually encounter..
    I disagree with this. You might be lucky with your setting, but you might not, and fail where you could have succeded for want of a liitle forethought and action.

    If you think there are better places for mating, use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregondo View Post
    The v queens will not magically mate in different drone congregation areas resulting in better genetics.
    They may do just that! See Dr. Delaney's account of mating separation in distinct paralel races in the US:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQNoQfW-9w

    Follow ups:
    http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/Dis...ney_070108.pdf

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/...010%20copy.pdf

    There's quite a bit of discussion about this in this thread:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...Treatment-Free

    Mike (UK)
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gainesville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    139

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    There's quite a bit of discussion about this in this thread:
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...Treatment-Free
    Thanks for the thread reference, Mike. That is/was a great discussion, over 450 posts all told. I'm only up to post #100 or so, but great reading, lots of thoughtful discussion.

    It seems to me that a lot of beekeeping is local. Here, for example, the few beekeepers I've asked say there are little to no feral colonies in our part of Virginia. We apparently have a long summer dearth and a longer winter dearth, and it is hard for the bees to gain enough foothold and stores to make it through both. That's also why most beekeepers here recommended feeding, as it is hard for managed bees as well.

    Indeed the advice here differs by region. We're deep in cold and snow right now, and local talk is about whether everyone's bees will live through the current subzero temps; but people in other states are talking about splits and swarms.

    Thank's again everyone for the insights,

    Erik
    Last edited by erikebrown; 02-19-2015 at 05:01 PM. Reason: gammer fixes
    In my second winter with 3 Langs and 2 Top Bar hives
    https://beeswitheeb.wordpress.com/

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    South Hamilton, MA
    Posts
    187

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    I have tried and failed at TF. I have met many people at 2 bee clubs. They all failed at TF, even in towns with low pesticides.
    My new strategy:

    My beliefs:
    1. Treatments: They should be minimized mainly because the surviving parasites are tougher. When done, they should be thorough, so few mites survive in the hive. They should break down easily, and after the breakdown, organisms should be introduced for a good ecology.
    2. Catching swarms is expensive and difficult.
    3. Swarm traps aren't very effective and should be used sparingly. I have put up many swarm traps and have only caught 5 swarms (4 in cardboard boxes, 1 in wood). Traps: volume: 30-40 L, entrance: 15 cm^2, height: 5-30 feet, lemongrass: 1 drop, 2 different species
    4. My package bees need treatments. Next year I will get treatment free queens and start breeding. I will have large mite free colonies to put the queens in.
    5. For at least the first 2 years, I will treat hives that fail tests.
    6. Requeen treated colonies with TF queens.


    My bees:
    1. 3 north California packages
    2. always make lots of brood
    3. look Italian: I plan to steal honey boxes and give them back at the right times to control eating.
    4. After 1 month, they replaced all their queens.
    5. all foundationless mediums
    6. small top and smaller bottom entrance
    7. insulated top cover
    8. screened bottom boards
    9. no excluders
    10. tons of forage, no feeding so far


    Treatments:
    goals:
    1. Buy TF queens and put them in low mite colonies next spring.
    2. Be TF on year 3.
    3. Breed TF queens.


    Treatments this year: I use OAV (oxalic acid vaporization). I hope to limit it to 1 in May, 1 round ending on 7/29, and 1 small round in mid winter.

    The current round (ending on 7/29):
    • size of hives: 3 mediums
    • dose: 0.5 teaspoons
    • intervals: days 0,2,7,12,17
    • By day 3, each hive dropped >50 mites, possibly 5,000.
    • On day 0, there were DWV bees.
    David Smolinski USDA hardiness zone 6b

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,150

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCucumber View Post
    I have tried and failed at TF..........
    Too complicated.
    Too long.
    Why packages from California?
    Bad start to begin with.
    Even locally caught commercial swarm is a better start.

    I decided I wanted in - I was TF on the spot; right there and then.
    Life is too short.
    I quickly killed few bees while re-learning the ropes (still am, but better at it every season).

    Catch few swarms so you have the initial resources of decent quality - NOT expensive and NOT complicated (but must be persistent with it).
    So you caught 5 swarms - what happened to them? All died?
    Should be able to build an empire from 5 swarms or at least stay afloat.

    All my bees started from a single swarm caught in late August and wintered on straight sugar.
    The next year I used them as a resource to plug few TF queens into - so the TF program lives the 4th summer now.

    Acquire TF queen(s) immediately at the first opportunity, plug them into your resources.
    As soon as practical propagate the TF line(s) so to have redundancy as well as mix-in some locally adapted blood with the TF blood.
    Be ready to loose bees; plan for the loss.
    Work with the existing population OR create one yourself.
    For sure pump out as many drones as you can from your desired colonies.
    If you don't work at the population level, you are doing it wrong and will fail.

    PS: towns with "low pesticides" have nothing to do with TF beekeeping
    Last edited by GregV; 07-25-2019 at 10:44 PM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Byron, Il, USA
    Posts
    368

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    Even if you use treatments, as a new beekeeper you will experience losses that a pro will not, simply due to experience. So when you lose a colony, don't assume it is treat or no treat. It may be incorrect treatments, or poor management of other things, or a weak queen, or simply bad luck with a hundred different things that can go wrong. Even big time beekeepers who treat lose hives and sometimes lose lots of hives.

    I am a new beekeeper too. I wanted to be TF but when I saw all the mites and wrinkled wings I treated, but it was much too late and the bees died anyway. 100% my fault. I was way too slow to recognize the problem and my treatments might have worked if they had been on time. Then, I let other hives build up too much moisture in the winter and lost some hives that way. Again, my fault. There are lots of different things you can do wrong and not all have to do with treating or not treating.

    I'd say don't knock yourself out about treating or not treating. You have one hive! Treat it if you have to to keep it alive until you have enough hives that losing a few won't knock you out. Us little guys are always on the verge of losing everything. 4 hives is far safer than 1 since it gives you a few options if a queen dies or something else happens.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Dane County, WI, USA
    Posts
    3,150

    Default Re: How to develop a treatment free apiary?

    This entire thread is an indication of mis-understanding of the TF.

    You don't develop a "treatment-free apiary" (a stand-alone, self-contained object as implied).
    Extreme example - a treatment-free hive (I mean it as a joke, but some take it seriously - too bad).
    Will not work.
    Don't waste your time.

    Instead you develop a sustainable treatment-free population over a large enough territory (or use an already existing one IF you are so very lucky).
    Now - think about the differences, think about what it takes to do, and go from there.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

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