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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >In fact, floating a larvae to the edge of the cell would provide MORE royal jelly for them to feed off of, and would create a better fed larvae, all other things considered.

    Except that once the larva turns the corner it's all out of reach.
    Supersedure cells are often, but not always, made on the face of normal brood rearing combs. Why is it that the emergency queens have a problem "turning the corner" to feed from the larvae, but the supersedure queens don't seem to have that problem?

    Supersedure queens are amazing in quality.

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    >But if the bees always chose the right age, if you came back after four days there wouldn't be any capped queen cells.

    Sure there would. If they started with a just hatched larva it would be 4 days old when they start. 4 days later it would get capped. 4 days is just insurance. And even if you have some at three, I believe the bees will tear those down later on their own.

    >Supersedure cells are often, but not always, made on the face of normal brood rearing combs. Why is it that the emergency queens have a problem "turning the corner" to feed from the larvae, but the supersedure queens don't seem to have that problem?

    They all have the same "problem" if it is a problem. It's not my theory, it's Jay Smith, Moses Quinby, Isaac Hopkins, Eugene Pratt , Joseph Brooks who have the theory that it's a problem. I don't think it really matters. The point is that IF you believe that is the issue you can do OTS (like Disselkon) or use new comb (like Quinby, Hopkins, Brooks, Pratt and Smith all of which made a point of using new comb so it can be torn down) or cut the edge of the comb (like Miller).

    >Supersedure queens are amazing in quality.

    Not always. Only if they are raised under good conditions. Swarm cells are pretty much guaranteed to be under the "best conditions" because those are the conditions that prompt swarming. Everything else (supersedure and emergency) is the luck of the draw.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    4 days is just insurance.
    Insurance against what? If the bees always choose the right age, you don't need insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    And even if you have some at three, I believe the bees will tear those down later on their own.
    Only 61% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    It's not my theory, it's Jay Smith, Moses Quinby, Isaac Hopkins, Eugene Pratt , Joseph Brooks who have the theory that it's a problem. I don't think it really matters.
    For someone who doesn't think it matters, you sure are defending their position rather vigorously.

    But fair enough. Too bad they aren't around for me to discuss this with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Supersedure queens are amazing in quality.

    Not always. Only if they are raised under good conditions. Swarm cells are pretty much guaranteed to be under the "best conditions" because those are the conditions that prompt swarming. Everything else (supersedure and emergency) is the luck of the draw.
    I will agree that swarm cells are of the best quality, head and shoulders. I will not agree that everything else is luck of the draw. Supersedure cells are given specific attention from the bees and reared with the intention that they take over the hive. Emergency cells are an "oh sh*t, what do we do now!" response. I will agree that not all supersedure cells are created equal. But on average, the run of the mill supersedure queen will be of substantially greater quality than the run of the mill emergency queen.

    If you disagree, so be it. But I think we'll have to chalk it up to an agreement to disagree.

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    I'm curious what grafted cells in a queenless starter are if they are not emergency cells.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I'm curious what grafted cells in a queenless starter are if they are not emergency cells.
    Might as well call it that if you're so inclined, if you think that the term would fit cups/cells with young larva placed/offered by the beekeeper...not started by the bees themselves.

    Are you comparing a queen less starter, well provided with lots and lots of young nurse bees, by the beekeeper, with a colony that just lost a queen due to beekeeper error?

    Or to a colony that the queen "just" died of natural causes? As in no "preexisting" conditions that the bees might have/could have detected and maybe initiate a supersedure event?

    The chances of that queen less starter cell, getting to tend to a 48Hr+ old larva, or even 72 hr old larva, are really small to non existent if the grafter on purpose placed only 12 hr old larvae.

    What emergency situation are we describing then? Emergency to the bees in the queen less starter...might be, but without the grafted cups provided by the beekeeper, that emergency becomes a fruitless, long and unfortunate wait.

    No? Yes? or maybe?

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    I would say that the conditions in a well prepared starter colony is more like the conditions in a colony preparing to swarm. I am assuming that heavy feeding and frames of sealed brood has been given to the colony 10 to 14 days before the date of queen removal/grafting and the boxes are packed with nurse age bees.

    What I see in a supersedure of an overwintered colony that has just come through a spring flow, the conditions in the colony is as good or better than the conditions when a colony first prepares to swarm. The queen cells built are built on eggs and not larva, just as are swarm cells and the eggs are usually in queen cups and not worker cells. I would choose supersedure cells over emergency queen cells every time. All of the controlled studies have shown 1/3 of emergency cells are made with larva that are older than 24 hours. This makes a difference between having a queen that is OK or having a queen that is excellent.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Seems to me if grafting a certain age larvae needs to be tested that Old Timer, or Michael Palmers, or even a Jenter system method of containing the queen in a three frame containment cage & pulling a frame every 3rd or 4th day you would be able to test your suppositions about age of larvae as it pertains to quality QR.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8 Michael Palmer "Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary"[email protected] minute 30 shows queen containment & talks about his method. I watch & read a lot about it & this is the best vid I have seen. Being a small timer I expect to use these methods on a smaller scale.

    I used the OTS last two years w/great results. I can't imagine an easier way to expand. I had 78 hives, lost 46! did a bunch of OTS splits, back to 56, went into this winter w/all splits booming populations & heavy w/stores. Made enough surplus to get me through till this year. @ last check (3 weeks ago) lost 5. Zero treatments, no sugar feeding as of yet, though I expect to make some of Lauri's feedblocks.

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...r-Midday/page2 Post #22 Lauri. I like this & expect to try it w/OTS. I have a Jenter, & I hope to make my first attempt @ grafting.

    "Rearing queens for a small operation" 5 years devouring books & vids, Beesource, & Lauri's FB, got to try 4-5 ways until I get a rhythm. If I had to commit to one, it would be OTS. Glad I don't have to. good luck
    Last edited by lakebilly; 01-22-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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  9. #68
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    >Insurance against what? If the bees always choose the right age, you don't need insurance.

    For those who are concerned about it. I don't need insurance. I don't tear down cells...

    >For someone who doesn't think it matters, you sure are defending their position rather vigorously.

    I'm just presenting their rationale. Any one of them raised more queens than I have. I suspect if someone is wrong, it's more likely to be me than them. I will put more stock in the view of someone who raised thousands of queens a year over someone who did a few in a lab and then had their study peer reviewed.

    And as Deknow pointed out, all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started, which almost no one does.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    And as Deknow pointed out, all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started, which almost no one does.
    C'mon Mr. Bush..."all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started"


    It might come out as hair splitting on terms, definitions and such. But, really ?

    A bunch of young nurse bees, crowded, manipulated, confined or not, fed and stimulated with syrup and pollen...vs. a colony that, for whatever reason lost its queen. As in quick, unexpected, and sudden queen disappearance.
    A bee colony that, at the time of EMERGENCY, has some very specific, well established feed back loops in place.

    This colony, has way more sources and way more options to deal with the "emergency" that just popped up. That is when compared with the queen less cell starter.

    And as such, it can and it does put in motion a few different responses. Yes, the motivation is the EMERGENCY that showed up, but the end result of their responses shows way more differences than what a queen less cell stater would show. No?
    From a vastly different age range in its bee population, vastly different feed back loops, chemical signals from possibly uncapped brood...and many other subtle but critical differences. None of which are present and available in a queen less cell starter set up by the beekeeper.

    Maybe in a flying queen less cell starter set up on top of an existing colony via some methods of separation, some of these "signals" could or would "bleed" through. None of that in a closed, no fly queen less cell starter.

    Am I wrong? If so, please be so kind and correct me.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    >It might come out as hair splitting on terms, definitions and such. But, really ?
    >A bunch of young nurse bees, crowded, manipulated, confined or not, fed and stimulated with syrup and pollen...vs. a colony that, for whatever reason lost its queen. As in quick, unexpected, and sudden queen disappearance.
    A bee colony that, at the time of EMERGENCY, has some very specific, well established feed back loops in place.

    In other words, it's the circumstances that determine the quality of the queen and not the emergency...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by lakebilly View Post
    I have only found many many ways that do not work!
    @lakebilly,

    Nice post. Good resources.

    I quoted your "tagline" just because it epitomizes a specific mind set. A mind set that accepts failure as a teacher, but NOT in a defeatist way. A mind set that in the end...allows you to say, and correctly so : "If I had to commit to one, it would be OTS. Glad I don't have to". Choices are good. Informed, well thought out choices, even more so.

    You are correct, both, Mr. Palmer and Oldtimer employ methods that give great control, to the beekeeper that is, in setting up the breeder queen in very well designed arrangements. Confining the laying queen to a narrow, specific space, for a specific, bee keeper controlled time frame.
    Heck, Mr. Palmer writes the time to the minute on top of that frame he offers the queen to lay in. Not only that, but he instructs his help to make sure, good, brood comb is saved and kept for this important step. Talking about control and attention to detail...and the results, no doubt, are something to be proud of.

    These types of setups, narrow the variation of that very, very young bee larva. Critical indeed when one needs very young larvae for grafting.

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    I think accepts failure as a "student" a stubbornly determined student is how I view myself.
    Most appreciative to the well intended counsel of everyone here.

    Pro 13:20
    He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
    Pro 4:7
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
    Pro 9:9
    Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
    Pro 11:14
    Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
    Pro 13:10
    Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
    Last edited by lakebilly; 01-22-2015 at 12:28 PM.
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  14. #73
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Great pains are taken to ensure cell starters are queenless. If you want an emergency response, you work with a queenless starter. If you want a swarming response you leave the queen in there. Either way you have provided a crowded and well provisioned situation. Why not leave the queen in the starter and let the grafts be 'swarm cells'? ....because over a wide range of circ8mstances, the emergency response is more reliable.

    If I recall, wasn't the Mraz operation running on walk away splits for some time?

    Certainly Dee hasn't grafted in years...and ive done hundreds of walk away splits with/for her. I can't say if the emergency queen produced lasted long, or was just a successful stepping stone to a proper queen.....or if the documented thylitokye in her bees influences the success....but most of the comb is old, and the splits overwhelmingly take...so it's hard for me to dismiss walk away splits as worthless.

    It is about resources...one of my favorite ways to do a walk away is to move a hive during the day and/or within the same yard. Put a single well provisioned frame with food brood of all ages, pollen, adhering bees, and eggs along with empty drawn comb at the old location. This is now a tiny colony with no queen. There are nurse bees to cover all the brood, and a hugely diproportionate number of forgers and older bees returning to the original site...lots of income and a strong desire to make a queen.

    This is not the same thing as taking a frame of brood and putting it in a dark corner of the apiary and hoping for a good queen.

    It is about resources and circumstance. Most methods are designed to achieve good results even when conditions arent ideal. If you only need a few queens, you can do almost anything as long as you pick the right timing.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I will put more stock in the view of someone who raised thousands of queens a year over someone who did a few in a lab and then had their study peer reviewed.
    If you think all those authors did (not of one paper, mind you) was raise a few queens in a lab and had their study peer reviewed, I really don't know how to respond. Quite frankly, I find that disrespectful.

    I'll take statistically relevant, peer reviewed and replicated scientific data gathered, reviewed, analyzed and replicated over several decades over the off hand comment of one (or half a dozen) individual's passing observations 8 days a week. You can marshal your views however you like.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    ...the firs study you cited (Worker regulation of emergency queen rearing in honey bee colonies and the resultant variation in queen quality) used 8 populous colonies in total. Perhaps you will quantify the number of colonies in the other studies so we can be confident that the studies you are claiming were more than raising a few queens in a lab. ....8 colonies is exactly that.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    I'm reminded of a (perhaps) similar situation.

    The literature states that your drone colonies should be surrounding your mating yards by a mile or so.

    When we've discussed this on bee-l almost no one did that..everyone kept them in the same yard. The gross research clearly shows that this is not a good plan...but more detailed research (Loper with his radar system) showed that the queen doesn't tend to make it to a DCA if there are drones in the flyway.

    The practical result is much more important than papers...and those making their living on the outcome have the most at stake.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...the firs study you cited . . . used 8 populous colonies in total.
    The value of the individual study doesn't come from one result. It's from replication and building of knowledge. A study of a statistically relevant number of colonies, when repeated by multiple parties, creates something larger than the results obtained in one single study. 8 colonies were chosen because it was statistically relevant. A review of several other studies (which show the same results) will indicate a pattern to the number of colonies chosen.

    Plus, these studies don't have $100k to throw down on colonies of bees to see what happens, or to pay the dozens of people it would take to observe the results.

    But, the number of colonies doesn't really matter. It's the number of queens reared. Right? The study you cited to, while it only involves the use of 8 colonies, studied the results of 217 queen cells, that resulted in 91 successfully hatched queens. I'd say that number is a bit higher than 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Perhaps you will quantify the number of colonies in the other studies
    I don't have the time to quantify every other study on the subject. But I did take 5 min and looked through a bunch of other studies that replicated the results, or obtained information that was determined of value to, or cited by, the article you gave.

    Divided by author and year

    S. Hatch, D.R. Tarpy, and D.J.C. Fletcher (1999) - 8 Colonies
    David C. Gilley · David R. Tarpy · Benjamin B. Land (2003) - 6 colonies
    Fell, Morse (1984) - Unknown colonies - 268 queen cells
    N. Châline, G. Arnold, C. Papin and F.L.W. Ratnieks (2003) - 2 colonies (studying genetics of 348 workers and 100 resulting queens)
    Butler (1957) - 2 Colonies
    Francis L.W. Ratnieks (1993) - 4 colonies
    DAVID R. TARPY, SHANTI HATCH & DAVID J. C. FLETCHER (1999) - Unknown colonnies - 135 queen cells
    Pettis (1994) - 42 colonies (I think)

    That's based on 5 min of research. I don't have access to all of the papers. These are just the ones that in 5 min I was able to determine the colony numbers (or cell numbers).

    Of the studies that we know both the number of colonies and the number of cells studied, we can estimate that the colonies studied produced, on average, 31 cells per colony. We know of 64 colonies studied in 6 studies cited above. Which means, on average, 1,984 cells were studied in those 6 studies (plus the two that we do know the cells studied, but don't know the number of colonies studied), making a total of (very roughly estimating) 2,387 queen cells studied, averaging at 298 queen cells studied per study.

    Yes, a hand full of queens generated in one set of circumstances isn't much to shake a fist at. 2,387 reared in 8 studies (when literally dozens, if not hundreds of studies have been done on this) is information of value, especially when every one of those individual studies showed statistically relevant information.

    Granted, a whole lot of this is estimation and speculation, but I don't have the $40 to drop on each article to read it through for your amusement. If you want to pay for it, have at it. I also don't have the 8 hours it would take to sort through another dozen articles spanning back 40+ years.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Keep you hive tool sharp, your smoker lit, and your veil tight ... It's Bee Time!

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post

    The literature states that your drone colonies should be surrounding your mating yards by a mile or so.

    When we've discussed this on bee-l almost no one did that..everyone kept them in the same yard. The gross research clearly shows that this is not a good plan...but more detailed research (Loper with his radar system) showed that the queen doesn't tend to make it to a DCA if there are drones in the flyway.
    @deknow,

    Would you be so kind and start a new thread on this particular issue? I know, Bee-L...folks from here, can go and read for themselves. Is Bee-L the equivalent of the Delphi's Oracle of today, in the world of bee keeping?
    I see quite a few from this very forum, folks that if they don't get an answer at this level...they go up, so to speak...to where the modern "gods" of beekeeping might share their "wisdom".

    But, why not bring a critical to understand topic, down from the "mountain" to the rest of us ? I truly think, it would make a very interesting thread.

    I did see, did read and enjoyed all your interventions on Bee-L...and I see the rebel in you shaking the boat on that more "pretentious and sophisticated" platform called BEE-L.
    On a lot of topics. Making friends and influencing people along the way. But, really I'll give it to you. Very good stuff. I mean that.

    You are, at least in my humble opinion, a subject matter expert in today's bee "universe" of information. Folks like you, are known in today's world of information flow, as KOL (Key Opinion Leader)...and no, it's not just in Medicine.

    So, what say you, regarding my suggestion?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    The practical result is much more important than papers...and those making their living on the outcome have the most at stake.
    The practical result(s) are very important...papers that get started because of these results, or in spite of them, are also very important. There, fixed it for you

    Oh, and that deGrasse Tyson tag line...I don't know. I think I liked Joni Mitchell's Shadows and Light line you had before, much, much better. But, even there, she started the song with: "Every picture has its shadows"

    Thanks and Peace!
    Last edited by apis maximus; 01-22-2015 at 01:56 PM.

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Rearing queens for a small operation

    It seems that if you really want to see beeks fight, just ask this question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ddawg View Post
    What methods would you more experience beeks recommend for a beek with a small operation on a learning level?
    Step 1. Ask Question. Step 2. Sit back and watch.
    Keep you hive tool sharp, your smoker lit, and your veil tight ... It's Bee Time!

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