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Rearing queens for a small operation

192K views 153 replies 49 participants last post by  Michael Bush 
#1 ·
I'm in my 4th year of beekeeping and I am a small operation with 6 production hives and various nucs through out the year. In this early phase of my beekeeping I don't plan on growing more than around 10 hives plus nucs.
I try to set a goal each year of starting to learn a new aspect of beekeeping. My first years have been focused on keeping the bees alive and nucs, with the specific goal of not purchasing packaged bees.
I think I have become reasonably competent with making spring nucs from swarm cells and helping my bees survive. But the issue I tend to run into is that when I need a queen I don't have one or suppliers are out, and It is a pretty long process (and a little pricey) to get one.
Also I have a few hives that have good traits and a few hives that have not so good traits (propolize the fool out of everything).
So I have decided my project for this year is to start learning queen rearing on a small scale.
My Primary focus on beekeeping is the production of Honey for sale and a fun learning experience for myself and my children.
What methods would you more experience beeks recommend for a beek with a small operation on a learning level?
I don't think I want to tackle grafting yet.
I have done some reading on general queen rearing and I may be looking at this wrong, but I figured I would determine which method of raising queens first and focus my reading and research on that method.

Thanks For your help.

David
 
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#40 ·
Specialkayme; I have been thinking about the age of larvae selected too. I used the Snelgrove board to induce bees to start queen cells and the author recommends pinching any cells that are capped by day 5 after setting them up. That would remove the possibility of having a caste queen. That move could be used with any queen rearing process I think.

The fact that cells are started up to 3 days after removing the queens presence would not have to mean they selected 3 day old larvae. If the eggs were laid shortly before queen removal it would take roughly 3 days 6 hours for them to hatch, would it not. The first ones bees started cells on could be just hatched too and the time spread observed from first to last would be theoretically 3 days 6 hours with both extremes having been started on first day larvae.

Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong in my thinking as I do admit that aspect can be puzzling.
 
#41 ·
I used the Snelgrove board to induce bees to start queen cells and the author recommends pinching any cells that are capped by day 5 after setting them up. That would remove the possibility of having a caste queen. That move could be used with any queen rearing process I think.
But in that situation, you are still selecting the age of the larvae that will be used. Only instead of doing it during grafting, you are doing it during capping (culling the oldest larvae). The mentality backed by proponents of emergency style queens is that the bees always know what's best, and will choose the best queen on their own. But the fact that you have to go back in and cull cells that are capped on day 5 kinda flys in the face of that assumption, does it not?

Sure it can be used, but the question is if you just let the bees do their thing, without interfering in that step, which queen would have hatched first? Would it be the caste queen? Would the caste queen be the best quality queen you could get?

The fact that cells are started up to 3 days after removing the queens presence would not have to mean they selected 3 day old larvae.
There was a study done that showed the age of the larvae the bees will select. I can't find it now. But the evidence indicated in emergency situations they would choose larvae that is between 12h-72h old (counting age as post-hatching). They ignored larvae under 12h old (as that's the time period they only eat pure royal jelly anyway), preferred 12-24h larvae, but also selected 24-72h larvae (although to a much lesser quantity).

It is possible to say that if the bees start rearing queens 24-72h after removal of the queen, that in hour 1 they select a larvae that is 1 hour hold, and in hour 65 they select a larvae that is also 1 hour old. The other studies, however, indicate that they take a broad brush, and select larvae of multiple ages, rather than the youngest.
 
#42 ·
Someone would have to search it out but I think I have read something to the effect that bees may tear down some of the older cells once they see they have a number to select from. Yes in desperation they will even build a cell and cap a drone larvae.

When I went back in to check for capped cells I did not find any early capped ones. Strictly opinion but I think them selecting older cells if they have a choice of optimum ones would be a rare circumstance rather than a common one.

I will use the Snelgrove board again this year but I think I will notch some frames selectively so I can have the cells distributed over more frames. I will see if they agree with my age selection or choose their own cells to tear down and start queen cells.
 
#43 ·
Someone would have to search it out but I think I have read something to the effect that bees may tear down some of the older cells once they see they have a number to select from.
You don't have to search far. It was the first article that I quoted to.

Tarpy, Hatch & Fletcher, The influence of queen age and quality during queen replacement in honeybee colonies. Animal Benaviour, 2000, 59, 97-101, 100.
53% of the cells built were later destroyed. And non-randomly. Meaning the older cells had a greater "destruction rate." But not 100% of the older cells were destroyed.

"only 37.0% of the cells constructed around eggs 0-24h old were torn down, while more than half (61.1%) of the cells started around larvae 24-48 h old were torn down before the queens could emerge."
Id. at 374.

But leaving 38.9% of the cells constructed from 24-48 h larvae intact to emerge isn't a great selection rate.

When I went back in to check for capped cells I did not find any early capped ones. Strictly opinion but I think them selecting older cells if they have a choice of optimum ones would be a rare circumstance rather than a common one.
Rear enough queens and you'll learn it isn't that rare.

When actively selecting and grafting larvae, it isn't too common because you select the age of the larvae. Still, sometimes you miss and one gets capped a day early. If you do a walk away split, the results will be very different.
 
#44 ·
How do you decide, in appraising the resulting queens, that one was raised from a 24-48 hour cell rather than the apparently favored 12-24 hr? Undoubtedly there will be queens that turn out to be less than favorable but how many are so for reasons other than a stale dated larvae?
 
#45 ·
How do you decide, in appraising the resulting queens, that one was raised from a 24-48 hour cell rather than the apparently favored 12-24 hr?
You don't.

You don't look at a queen raised under an E-cell condition and determine that they were either raised from a 12-24h larvae or a 24-48h larvae. You look at the quality of e-cells overall when compared to other methods.

I give you the following:
Given: A queen raised from 36h larvae is, generally speaking, to be of lower quality than a queen raised of 12h larvae (as shown by the papered studies)
Given: Workers will destroy 61.1% of cells of larvae that are 24-48h old, and leave 38.9% of those older larvae to hatch.
Given: A 36h larvae developed into a queen will hatch before (all other things considered equal) a 12h larvae developed into a queen.
Given: The first queen to be released usually destroys her sisters that haven't developed yet.
Given: A queen reared from older larvae has a statistically greater chance of winning in a queen on queen fight (as shown by the papered studies)
Therefore: The queen reared from the older larvae has a greater chance of survival than the queen reared from the younger larvae.
Therefore: The queen reared from emergency stimuli has a greater chance of being of lower quality than a younger larvae queen.

Statistically speaking, not every queen that wins will be of the lower quality. But statistically speaking, the average queen that survives from the e-cell situation will be over a lower quality than the average queen that survives from a situation where only 12h old larvae has been reared (based upon selection from the grafting).

The better question isn't whether the e-cell queen is of lower quality. The better question is whether the reduction in quality is important enough that it justifies the need to graft as opposed to just doing walk away splits (or another method of e-queens). Considering that the work involved in grafting is very small, to me it is worth the work. Your assessment may be different.

But look at when bees are taking their time to select the right replacement queen: either swarm or supersedure queens. They don't do the broad brush selection of 0-72h old larvae. They only choose the youngest queens. Why? Because they can afford to take the time to get a quality queen. If the swarm/supersedure methods didn't produce noticeably superior queens to the bees, why wouldn't they just select a random assortment of 0-72h larvae to make swarm/supersedure queens from, and take their chances?

If you are looking for a date to go to prom, and you are looking in August, you've got time to be selective. Choose the best date. If you are looking for a date to go to prom and it's late April, you are more under the gun. You don't have time to be selective and you have to choose the quick date, maybe not the best looking one, but one that will get you into the prom. Doesn't mean you have to date her for life though. The bees use a very similar situation. E-cells are the late April prom dates. Choose an August prom date.
 
#46 ·
I think there was much more to Mel's OTS book/method than just raising queens. As I read it he focused on queens to get you started on "outbreeding mites", making more bees or honey to sell and overwintering nucs with a June/July queen to build your apiary. He didn't seem to be focused on breeding a super queen.
Personally I think that most queens whether emergency, supersedure or grafted or whatever will suffice as long as you have enough bees (a lot of bees) in the box to feed them as larval. It is my understanding that workers get the same feed as queens for the first 3 days.
I also like Oldtimer's method. The link is on this site under Resources - pretty cool.
 
#48 ·
>I disagree with the theory, as it is not based on any form of evidence or reality.

The reality has been observed as far back as Huber by many bee observers. The bees on old brood comb will float the larva to the mouth of the cell. If they have new comb or if the cell wall is broken they do not float the larva out.

"Larvae destined to become queens are floated to the mouth of the cell with pap.
It is probably for that purpose that the bees accumulate the pap behind them; and place them on this high bed; this is evidenced by the fact that this large bed of pap is not neces-sary for their food, for we still find it in the cell after the worm has descended into the pyramidal prolongation by which the workers terminate its abode.

"We may therefore know what larvae are destined, by the aspect of the cells occupied by them, even previous to their enlargement and their change into a pyramidal shape. From this observation it was easy to ascertain, at the end of twenty-four hours whether the bees had resolved to replace their queen. Among the great number of mysteries which surround this great trait of their instinct, there is one which I hoped to discover and which would appear to lead to the clearing of other points equally obscure."--Francis Huber, New Observations On Bees Chapter X, while describing the bees making emergency queens.

What the bees do varies greatly by the circumstances. Miller, Smith and others started with the assumption that bees would start with too old of a larvae. After decades of observation they concluded they were wrong. My problem with any research on the subject is that I think you can get whatever results you like if you set up the right circumstances. The qualtiy of emergency queens, as well as grafted quens, depends entirely on the circumstances. Not on some immovable "fact".

If age is your concern there is a very simple (even if somewhat tedious) solution. You come back four days after you made them queenless and destroy any capped queen cells.

I have always understood that Mel had two methods. OTS and IMN. I have never been under the impression that they were the same method.
 
#50 ·
I can see lots of advantages of grafting especially where you are selling queens or transporting cells. It is a whole lot easier logistically to have a nice separate, uniform neat package rather than queen cells attached to a frame of bees. Grafting gives flexibility in choice of eggs with very little damage to comb and is not very disruptive to the donor hive. I am sure it would be the way to go if you were raising queens where there is value to ultimate performance and photo sessions of process: Certainly Lauri's queen rearing has a lot of appeal that Mel's would not!:D

For my purposes it would be little problem to check and pinch cells that could have come from older larvae. I am no fan of walk away splits in many circumstances as that could lead to underfeeding issues that might well lead to somewhat compromised queens. I think it is easy to crowd and feed the nurse bees so that cells will be well fed from the get go. Maybe that has been tested.

Maximum longevity and peak laying capacity of my queens will not likely ever be tested in my climate and I doubt that I will ever know whether 10% or whatever of their ovarioles are not developed. Is perfection sometimes the enemy of good?
 
#52 ·
International mating nuc is what it stands for. It seems that the instant authority so quick to be rude doesn't really understand who he is talking about. We are just talking, can't we be civil? Why is it so important for some people to feel they are the absolute authority?
 
#55 ·
The great thing about beekeeping is the number of answers you will receive to your question, and maybe all of them are good. Now here goes another, go to Beeworks.com and order their DVD on queen rearing. They go through several ways of raising queens, then make up your own mind as to which you want to do. The DVD is of excellent quality. The Nicot system is a fool proof way of getting the correct age Larva. Just remember that raising good quality queens is only half the process. Having good quality drones is of equal importance to complete the equation. Good Luck.
 
#56 ·
I'm just being argumentative!:D Not everyone has to like Mel's cell notching or his other method of deselecting and spacing by dousing with powder. Interesting concepts though.

For the small number of cells I need, if the notching will help fix the cell locations where I choose, and breaking the cell walls guarantee uninterrupted feeding of the larvae, I will not be bothering with the multiple splitting and mite control portions of his method. I mix it up further by combining it with the Snelgrove board. My son has done something similar with the Cloake boards. I think we can really blurr the line between untimely, unprepared emergency cell queening and a contrived situation that is closer to supercedure conditions from the ensuing queens perspective.
 
#57 ·
SpecialKayme, thanks for your response. I think the confusion is in the terminology. I think there would have been less confusion had he labelled the sheet you refer to in post #38 2. http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf as "notching" rather than the title he gives it which leads you to think there is flour involved.
I do have a seperate point. I know that science supports that in order to have the maximum number of ovarioles in a honeybee queen she needs to be fed royal jelly for the maximum length of time possible which means she should be grafted or transferred as soon as it is feasibly possible to do so. In a lecture I heard a speaker describe this in a metaphor: Suppose instead of putting a full size gas tank in a Chevy truck, the factory screws up and puts in the gas tank of a small sedan. The owner of the truck thinks he has a great chevy truck until it runs out of gas because the tank is too small. The point was that a queen raised in less than optimal conditions would run out of eggs sooner than one that was raised perfectly.
This may be true, but suppose you never drove the truck (the truck with the sedan's gas tank) far enough to run out of gas. It wouldn't make a difference. That is how I think it may be with bees. I accept, based upon the evidence I have seen, that some of the queens that are produced by MDA.splitter techniques may not have the maximum ovariole development. It makes sense. However, it is not a concern in the apiary. They overwinter, and then they produce honey. Liken it to humans: If you were developing a race of superhumans you probably wouldn't pick me, but I get to reproduce and add something to the gene pool. My kids are healthy and smart, thank goodness.
I think John Lennon said it best, "All I am saying is give bees a chance". Oops, according to google he said "bees". ;)
 
#58 ·
>In fact, floating a larvae to the edge of the cell would provide MORE royal jelly for them to feed off of, and would create a better fed larvae, all other things considered.

Except that once the larva turns the corner it's all out of reach.

>>Miller, Smith and others started with the assumption that bees would start with too old of a larvae. After decades of observation they concluded they were wrong.
>Alot of things have changed in our understanding of bees since Miller, Smith and Jay. This would be one of them.

No, that was the understanding at the time. The really great beekeepers just eventually decided to reject it.

>Some of the studies within the papers I referenced goes back to the 70's. Most occurred in the early 2000's. Many were replicated, and found the same results. Are you saying all of those studies were "flawwed", despite the fact that they were peer reviewed and replicated multiple times?

I'm saying you can set up the right circumstances and get all sorts of results. I'm sure Miller and Smith and Quinby observed things under many different circumstances than the researchers.

>>If age is your concern there is a very simple (even if somewhat tedious) solution. You come back four days after you made them queenless and destroy any capped queen cells.
>But if the bees always choose the right age, you wouldn't need to do that, right Mike?

Which is why I don't.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Here is a quote from Oldtimer on OTS queen rearing from a recent post on BeeSource. He discusses why an OTS queen typically turns out well and why emergency queens may not.

Watched the video you posted Eduardo, yes that is probably the simplest way to get some queen cells. As to quality, notching the comb as he did can produce good quality cells. The reason is that if the bees have to use a comb like that to make queen cells, to get the cell in the downwards position, they have to float the larva out to the end of the cell on royal jelly, and then point the cell in the normal downwards position. But to feed, the larva has to stretch around the corner to get the jelly, and as a result these queens are often not so well nourished, and smaller. That is why you will often hear it said that emergency raised queens are not as good.

But notching the comb as he did, means the bees will choose a larva immediately above the notch, and build the queen cell straight down, because the cell below has been cut away. This can produce a well fed and high quality queen.
That discussion is located in post #20 here.......
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305927-Raising-queens&highlight=queen+cell

I'm thinking Oldtimer knows from experience what he is talking about.

For the record, while OTS appeals to me, I know nothing of the procedure involving bullet cartridges, flour, or killing all other brood in the frame. It appears to me you "notch" the cells that have larva the age you want (or eggs if you choose) and a queenless hive will build queen cells where you've notched. Doesn't seem that difficult to notch only cells with the age larva or eggs you choose. And when I follow the OTS method, I don't lose my mind and have to take every statement ever made by the folks who figured it out as literal. Everyone misstates something once in a while or says something could have been worded better. And I may pick and choose what I like and modify as I please but I would still refer to it as OTS queen rearing if I didn't change anything drastic.

The video linked below shows what I refer to when I say "notch" the cells. Also, this is the video posted by Eduardo that Oldtimer is referencing in the quote above:
 
#62 ·
>But if the bees always chose the right age, if you came back after four days there wouldn't be any capped queen cells.

Sure there would. If they started with a just hatched larva it would be 4 days old when they start. 4 days later it would get capped. 4 days is just insurance. And even if you have some at three, I believe the bees will tear those down later on their own.

>Supersedure cells are often, but not always, made on the face of normal brood rearing combs. Why is it that the emergency queens have a problem "turning the corner" to feed from the larvae, but the supersedure queens don't seem to have that problem?

They all have the same "problem" if it is a problem. It's not my theory, it's Jay Smith, Moses Quinby, Isaac Hopkins, Eugene Pratt , Joseph Brooks who have the theory that it's a problem. I don't think it really matters. The point is that IF you believe that is the issue you can do OTS (like Disselkon) or use new comb (like Quinby, Hopkins, Brooks, Pratt and Smith all of which made a point of using new comb so it can be torn down) or cut the edge of the comb (like Miller).

>Supersedure queens are amazing in quality.

Not always. Only if they are raised under good conditions. Swarm cells are pretty much guaranteed to be under the "best conditions" because those are the conditions that prompt swarming. Everything else (supersedure and emergency) is the luck of the draw.
 
#63 ·
4 days is just insurance.
Insurance against what? If the bees always choose the right age, you don't need insurance.

And even if you have some at three, I believe the bees will tear those down later on their own.
Only 61% of the time.

It's not my theory, it's Jay Smith, Moses Quinby, Isaac Hopkins, Eugene Pratt , Joseph Brooks who have the theory that it's a problem. I don't think it really matters.
For someone who doesn't think it matters, you sure are defending their position rather vigorously.

But fair enough. Too bad they aren't around for me to discuss this with.

>Supersedure queens are amazing in quality.

Not always. Only if they are raised under good conditions. Swarm cells are pretty much guaranteed to be under the "best conditions" because those are the conditions that prompt swarming. Everything else (supersedure and emergency) is the luck of the draw.
I will agree that swarm cells are of the best quality, head and shoulders. I will not agree that everything else is luck of the draw. Supersedure cells are given specific attention from the bees and reared with the intention that they take over the hive. Emergency cells are an "oh sh*t, what do we do now!" response. I will agree that not all supersedure cells are created equal. But on average, the run of the mill supersedure queen will be of substantially greater quality than the run of the mill emergency queen.

If you disagree, so be it. But I think we'll have to chalk it up to an agreement to disagree.
 
#65 ·
Might as well call it that if you're so inclined, if you think that the term would fit cups/cells with young larva placed/offered by the beekeeper...not started by the bees themselves.

Are you comparing a queen less starter, well provided with lots and lots of young nurse bees, by the beekeeper, with a colony that just lost a queen due to beekeeper error?

Or to a colony that the queen "just" died of natural causes? As in no "preexisting" conditions that the bees might have/could have detected and maybe initiate a supersedure event?

The chances of that queen less starter cell, getting to tend to a 48Hr+ old larva, or even 72 hr old larva, are really small to non existent if the grafter on purpose placed only 12 hr old larvae.

What emergency situation are we describing then? Emergency to the bees in the queen less starter...might be, but without the grafted cups provided by the beekeeper, that emergency becomes a fruitless, long and unfortunate wait.

No? Yes? or maybe?
 
#66 ·
I would say that the conditions in a well prepared starter colony is more like the conditions in a colony preparing to swarm. I am assuming that heavy feeding and frames of sealed brood has been given to the colony 10 to 14 days before the date of queen removal/grafting and the boxes are packed with nurse age bees.

What I see in a supersedure of an overwintered colony that has just come through a spring flow, the conditions in the colony is as good or better than the conditions when a colony first prepares to swarm. The queen cells built are built on eggs and not larva, just as are swarm cells and the eggs are usually in queen cups and not worker cells. I would choose supersedure cells over emergency queen cells every time. All of the controlled studies have shown 1/3 of emergency cells are made with larva that are older than 24 hours. This makes a difference between having a queen that is OK or having a queen that is excellent.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Seems to me if grafting a certain age larvae needs to be tested that Old Timer, or Michael Palmers, or even a Jenter system method of containing the queen in a three frame containment cage & pulling a frame every 3rd or 4th day you would be able to test your suppositions about age of larvae as it pertains to quality QR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8 Michael Palmer "Queen Rearing in the Sustainable Apiary".@ minute 30 shows queen containment & talks about his method. I watch & read a lot about it & this is the best vid I have seen. Being a small timer I expect to use these methods on a smaller scale.

I used the OTS last two years w/great results. I can't imagine an easier way to expand. I had 78 hives, lost 46! did a bunch of OTS splits, back to 56, went into this winter w/all splits booming populations & heavy w/stores. Made enough surplus to get me through till this year. @ last check (3 weeks ago) lost 5. Zero treatments, no sugar feeding as of yet, though I expect to make some of Lauri's feedblocks.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303881-Spring-Split-Last-light-or-Midday/page2 Post #22 Lauri. I like this & expect to try it w/OTS. I have a Jenter, & I hope to make my first attempt @ grafting.

"Rearing queens for a small operation" 5 years devouring books & vids, Beesource, & Lauri's FB, got to try 4-5 ways until I get a rhythm. If I had to commit to one, it would be OTS. Glad I don't have to. good luck
 
#71 ·
I have only found many many ways that do not work!
@lakebilly,

Nice post. Good resources.

I quoted your "tagline" just because it epitomizes a specific mind set. A mind set that accepts failure as a teacher, but NOT in a defeatist way. A mind set that in the end...allows you to say, and correctly so : "If I had to commit to one, it would be OTS. Glad I don't have to". Choices are good. Informed, well thought out choices, even more so.

You are correct, both, Mr. Palmer and Oldtimer employ methods that give great control, to the beekeeper that is, in setting up the breeder queen in very well designed arrangements. Confining the laying queen to a narrow, specific space, for a specific, bee keeper controlled time frame.
Heck, Mr. Palmer writes the time to the minute on top of that frame he offers the queen to lay in. Not only that, but he instructs his help to make sure, good, brood comb is saved and kept for this important step. Talking about control and attention to detail...and the results, no doubt, are something to be proud of.

These types of setups, narrow the variation of that very, very young bee larva. Critical indeed when one needs very young larvae for grafting.
 
#68 ·
>Insurance against what? If the bees always choose the right age, you don't need insurance.

For those who are concerned about it. I don't need insurance. I don't tear down cells...

>For someone who doesn't think it matters, you sure are defending their position rather vigorously.

I'm just presenting their rationale. Any one of them raised more queens than I have. I suspect if someone is wrong, it's more likely to be me than them. I will put more stock in the view of someone who raised thousands of queens a year over someone who did a few in a lab and then had their study peer reviewed.

And as Deknow pointed out, all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started, which almost no one does.
 
#69 ·
And as Deknow pointed out, all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started, which almost no one does.
C'mon Mr. Bush..."all grafted queens are emergency queens unless you are using a queenright started"


It might come out as hair splitting on terms, definitions and such. But, really ?

A bunch of young nurse bees, crowded, manipulated, confined or not, fed and stimulated with syrup and pollen...vs. a colony that, for whatever reason lost its queen. As in quick, unexpected, and sudden queen disappearance.
A bee colony that, at the time of EMERGENCY, has some very specific, well established feed back loops in place.

This colony, has way more sources and way more options to deal with the "emergency" that just popped up. That is when compared with the queen less cell starter.

And as such, it can and it does put in motion a few different responses. Yes, the motivation is the EMERGENCY that showed up, but the end result of their responses shows way more differences than what a queen less cell stater would show. No?
From a vastly different age range in its bee population, vastly different feed back loops, chemical signals from possibly uncapped brood...and many other subtle but critical differences. None of which are present and available in a queen less cell starter set up by the beekeeper.

Maybe in a flying queen less cell starter set up on top of an existing colony via some methods of separation, some of these "signals" could or would "bleed" through. None of that in a closed, no fly queen less cell starter.

Am I wrong? If so, please be so kind and correct me.
 
#70 ·
>It might come out as hair splitting on terms, definitions and such. But, really ?
>A bunch of young nurse bees, crowded, manipulated, confined or not, fed and stimulated with syrup and pollen...vs. a colony that, for whatever reason lost its queen. As in quick, unexpected, and sudden queen disappearance.
A bee colony that, at the time of EMERGENCY, has some very specific, well established feed back loops in place.

In other words, it's the circumstances that determine the quality of the queen and not the emergency...
 
#72 · (Edited)
I think accepts failure as a "student" a stubbornly determined student is how I view myself.
Most appreciative to the well intended counsel of everyone here.

Pro 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
Pro 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Pro 9:9
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Pro 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Pro 13:10
Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
 
#73 ·
Great pains are taken to ensure cell starters are queenless. If you want an emergency response, you work with a queenless starter. If you want a swarming response you leave the queen in there. Either way you have provided a crowded and well provisioned situation. Why not leave the queen in the starter and let the grafts be 'swarm cells'? ....because over a wide range of circ8mstances, the emergency response is more reliable.

If I recall, wasn't the Mraz operation running on walk away splits for some time?

Certainly Dee hasn't grafted in years...and ive done hundreds of walk away splits with/for her. I can't say if the emergency queen produced lasted long, or was just a successful stepping stone to a proper queen.....or if the documented thylitokye in her bees influences the success....but most of the comb is old, and the splits overwhelmingly take...so it's hard for me to dismiss walk away splits as worthless.

It is about resources...one of my favorite ways to do a walk away is to move a hive during the day and/or within the same yard. Put a single well provisioned frame with food brood of all ages, pollen, adhering bees, and eggs along with empty drawn comb at the old location. This is now a tiny colony with no queen. There are nurse bees to cover all the brood, and a hugely diproportionate number of forgers and older bees returning to the original site...lots of income and a strong desire to make a queen.

This is not the same thing as taking a frame of brood and putting it in a dark corner of the apiary and hoping for a good queen.

It is about resources and circumstance. Most methods are designed to achieve good results even when conditions arent ideal. If you only need a few queens, you can do almost anything as long as you pick the right timing.
 
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