Introduce virgin queens of a different strain - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    This is at the end of the report

    'When virgin queens are used, our results indicate that
    the younger they are the better, but that virgins
    3–4 days old are only slightly less successful
    than virgins 0–1 days old. This suggests that
    virgins can be sent through the mail provided

    that they are sent on the day of emergence, that
    the mail is swift (one or two days), and that
    they are immediately placed into queen mating
    hives on arrival."

    I think if you tried to ship one day old virgins, you'd end up with several mortalities. You'd have to pack that shipping box with lots of bees to keep the young virgins warm.

    I've had older virgins alone in roller cage (No attendants) I didn't have room to place and forgot them in my pocket of my bee jacket. Found them the next day after sitting outside overnight around 65 degrees. Still active and hardy. If I did that with a day old virgin she'd be dead within hours-if not sooner.

    I do usually place my virgin queens the day of hatching. But unless the day is HOT, I always have a small disposable hand warmer in my pocket with them. I also have an insulated lunch box I'll load up with cages filled with young virgin queens. A single hand warmer in with them and I can take my time collecting mated queens and replaceing them with ether cells or virgins.
    If I collect a mated queen and only have virgins to replace her, I'll just let the roller cage sit on top the frames for a couple hours before releasing her. Overnight if the weather is warm enough and the bees will cover her. That way they don't need a queenless period and they don't start any cells of their own.

    A couple newly made mating nucs with virgins in roller caged set on top.Cover with a well insulated lid.

    http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/p...psc99df707.jpg

    Here you see what I commonly carrry in my pouch during the summer:
    -Shipping cage that has attendants always contains a mated queen.

    -Shipping cage without attendants always contains a virgin queen. I use this is I want to leave them caged overnight in a nuc that ether doesn't have room on top the frames for a roller cage, or the nuc is too small to keep that virgin warm. I wil then slip the shipping cage between the frames as standard.

    -Roller cage with a capped candled queen cell & roller cage with a virgin queen.

    I like roller cages for direct releasing over JZBZ shpping cages. The opening is far larger and you can more easily control the virgin's release & direct her down between the frames-so she doesn't make her break.

    http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps18aed7c5.jpg

    Hand warmers I use on occasion to keep cells and virgins from getting chilled.
    http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps7a7b2c25.jpg
    Last edited by Barry; 01-22-2015 at 05:22 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

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  3. #42
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    Post Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    That is just about the same results I've experienced, although I've not tried to introduce a virgin into a queenright hive. I have no reason to try that.

    That study mentionedshipping virgin queens almost immediatly upon hatching (1 day old). They are very temperature sensitive & delicate at that age and I don't agree with that part. I've found the age of the virgin isn't
    near as importaint as the attitude of the receiving colony.

    A 2-3+ day old virgin is a lot stronger and has more confidence than a one day old virgin. She'll strut rather than cower when bees come to greet her.
    I've kept my mouth shut on this topic till now...

    Virgin queens produce pheromones used in survival that mated queens do not produce. I did some research on this years ago--didn't publish, but have all the data. As virgins age, their pheromonal

    blend and behavior becomes less and less attractive towards accepting bees. I do not agree with you Lauri: older virgins are not accepted as readily as day-old ones. Chances of acceptance

    decreases significantly as the virgin ages.


    HOWEVER: acceptance is heavily dependent on the type of bees accepting! If you introduce a day-old virgin to young bees or a three-day-old virgin to young bees, the chances of acceptance is much

    greater than if you are introducing to mixed age bees in a queenless state. What else is in the introduction colony? If there's any open/wet brood, the chances the virgin will be accepted are much less.

    Sealed brood or eggs: fine for introducing a virgin, but no open/wet brood.



    How does this apply to increasing your chances of acceptance with virgins? Introduce virgins to very small hives with very young bees. If you can introduce the virgin under a push-in cage with several

    newly-emerged workers and open cells with nectar, the virgin will be well-fed and you can release her in a day or two. She'll most likely live to mate and make a great queen.



    A great quote from Oliver Field's book, Honey By The Ton :

    "Give the bees what they are expecting."


    Where would one find a newly hatched virgin? In a hive that had swarmed. What's left in that hive? Young and emerging bees.


    Good Luck!

    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com
    Last edited by adamf; 01-17-2015 at 03:01 PM.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    This is at the end of the report

    'When virgin queens are used, our results indicate that
    the younger they are the better, but that virgins
    34 days old are only slightly less successful
    than virgins 01 days old. This suggests that
    virgins can be sent through the mail provided

    that they are sent on the day of emergence, that
    the mail is swift (one or two days), and that
    they are immediately placed into queen mating
    hives on arrival."

    I think if you tried to ship one day old virgins, you'd end up with several mortalities. You'd have to pack that shipping box with lots of bees to keep the young virgins warm.

    I've had older virgins alone in roller cage (No attendants) I didn't have room to place and forgot them in my pocket of my bee jacket. Found them the next day after sitting outside overnight around 65 degrees. Still active and hardy. If I did that with a day old virgin she'd be dead within hours-if not sooner.
    We ship day-old virgins in JZBZ cages with 7 attendants. The attendants care for the virgins. We've had pretty much 100% survival shipping this way for over five years. Try using attendants when you ship.

    Adam

    http://vpqueenbees.com

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Adam is correct.
    While using a push in cage is good, I find it too small a space. And buying or making
    that many push in cage is not that economical for a 1 time use. On ebay there is the
    plastic virgin releasing tube. Basically I saw on BS post here that the virgin will bite thru the wax
    simulating a natural hatch process. So you first catch the virgin to put into the plastic tube. Don't
    forget the tab of honey on the outside wax too. I don't know the success rate but with all young bees I think this is possible.
    This is the most economical and time conserving process.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    We ship day-old virgins in JZBZ cages with 7 attendants. The attendants care for the virgins. We've had pretty much 100% survival shipping this way for over five years. Try using attendants when you ship.

    Adam

    http://vpqueenbees.com
    Yes, I would use attendants when I shipped, I think you confuse my own personal useage without attendants with those I might ship.
    I'm just trying to relay the fact the day old virgins are much more temp sensitive to those with a little more age on them. In addition to the caged attendents, those very young virgins may need more additional bees in the shipping container to regulate temps. Especially when comparing to a hardier mated queens shipping conditions.

    There are tons of scenarios and that's when it starts getting confusing for folks to follow.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    Good Luck!
    Thank you Adam.
    I'm trying to create in Portugal a group of beekeepers that may buy resistant queens with me and then we can mount a queen exchange program, similar to one that are you doing in your country. Adam the best of luck for your program.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    I'm trying to create in Portugal a group of beekeepers that may buy resistant queens with me and then we can mount a queen exchange program, similar to one that are you doing in your country.
    outstanding eduardo. portugal is fortunate for your efforts. i too wish you success.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Thank you squarepeg. If my companions and I achieve our goals, much is due to the help that I'm having here in beesource from you and others who are teaching me and cheering for me in a way that is exceeding my wildest expectations.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    While using a push in cage is good, I find it too small a space. And buying or making
    that many push in cage is not that economical for a 1 time use.
    Make a larger cage. I re-use my home made cages for years.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Lauri...is there no need to leave a hive Queenless for a while before releasing a virgin queen? Is it necessary to leave a virgin Queen in a cage for a bit if you have recently taken away the Queen?
    Do virgin Queens not require attendants? When you have them caged in an incubator for a couple days are they on their own and if so how do you water and feed them?
    Also for mated Queens with attendants will any age of female bees work as an attendant?
    Oh..and is a candled Queen cell one that is soon to emerge?
    Sorry for so many questions.
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Perhaps that is why Lauri has great results when she pulls a queen and leaves the hive queenless for a week before introducing the virgin.


    Quote Originally Posted by adamf View Post
    I've kept my mouth shut on this topic till now...

    Virgin queens produce pheromones used in survival that mated queens do not produce. I did some research on this years ago--didn't publish, but have all the data. As virgins age, their pheromonal

    blend and behavior becomes less and less attractive towards accepting bees. I do not agree with you Lauri: older virgins are not accepted as readily as day-old ones. Chances of acceptance

    decreases significantly as the virgin ages.


    HOWEVER: acceptance is heavily dependent on the type of bees accepting! If you introduce a day-old virgin to young bees or a three-day-old virgin to young bees, the chances of acceptance is much

    greater than if you are introducing to mixed age bees in a queenless state. What else is in the introduction colony? If there's any open/wet brood, the chances the virgin will be accepted are much less.

    Sealed brood or eggs: fine for introducing a virgin, but no open/wet brood.



    How does this apply to increasing your chances of acceptance with virgins? Introduce virgins to very small hives with very young bees. If you can introduce the virgin under a push-in cage with several

    newly-emerged workers and open cells with nectar, the virgin will be well-fed and you can release her in a day or two. She'll most likely live to mate and make a great queen.



    A great quote from Oliver Field's book, Honey By The Ton :

    "Give the bees what they are expecting."


    Where would one find a newly hatched virgin? In a hive that had swarmed. What's left in that hive? Young and emerging bees.


    Good Luck!

    Adam
    http://vpqueenbees.com
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Thanks, Michael.
    Next time I will use the velco strips on the sides of the frame for faster removal of the #8 wire
    screen cloth. The velcos are recyclable for another application. This way the entire
    frame can be covered without making or buying more push in cages. Now queen introduction should
    bee a snap. Get it?
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Now queen introduction should
    bee a snap.
    Just don't let that virgin queen get away from you
    Why aren't you just making a simple 3x3" screen cage? Cut the screen, clip the corners, fold it into shape.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by WBVC View Post
    Lauri...is there no need to leave a hive Queenless for a while before releasing a virgin queen? Is it necessary to leave a virgin Queen in a cage for a bit if you have recently taken away the Queen?
    Do virgin Queens not require attendants? When you have them caged in an incubator for a couple days are they on their own and if so how do you water and feed them?
    Also for mated Queens with attendants will any age of female bees work as an attendant?
    Oh..and is a candled Queen cell one that is soon to emerge?
    Sorry for so many questions.
    They are good questions Janne. Got to make my husband breakfast first. I'll answer your questions a bit later
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    In principle I will buy virgin queens from a resistant varroa strain in a notable amount in France. I need to go comfortable for this business. I lack filing some edges of this plan and I ask for your help and advice.

    What should I watch and how to introduce virgin queens of a different strain, in order to maximize the acceptance rate? I thank your valuable help .
    Given your cicumstances as you have presented them this may well be your best solution.
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ur+queen+cells
    I found this all most enlightening. If your source is amenable to shipping 48 hour cells you could put them in cell builders for a few days to finish and confirm that they are viable and healthy and place them in the nucs shortly before they hatch. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that a cell which goes through the natural hatching process within a hive will likely be accepted as one of their own and have a high acceptance rate regardless of genetics. This shouldn't be difficult.
    Lots of interesting reading here (thanks for the cameo Adam) but I guess I just have a fundamental problem with the necessity of handling virgins as a matter of routine.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Thank you Jim for the link.
    Dr. Kefuss sell 48 h cells, but just "au rucher"/apiary.
    In principle it is not an option because of the distance of the trip (about 3000 km) . Or am I mistaken? How to do it?

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Oh, Lauri. I know about those fast flying virgins, alright.
    Snip snip!

    Eduardo, why don't you buy the ripe capped cells to ship in a battery
    box or a warm packet. If you can keep them warm inside an igloo then this is possible.
    Order more than 200 cells to ensure some will survive the trip and hatch. Making mating nuc is much simpler, eh.
    There are keepers here that ship cells before. Your friend has to contact his shipping company to ship them within 1 day.
    Over here we have overnight shipping. So the distance is not an issue on a fast cargo plane going your way. And the price is not too expensive either. Well, at
    least over here. It can be arrange with the help of the shipping company.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    Oh, Lauri. I know about those fast flying virgins, alright.
    Snip snip!
    So beepro, those "snip, snip" virgins of yours...would they still fly out on their own and get mated?
    Or you just take them directly to the II/AI station?

    Could you elaborate a bit? Thanks.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Thank you Jim for the link.
    Dr. Kefuss sell 48 h cells, but just "au rucher"/apiary.
    In principle it is not an option because of the distance of the trip (about 3000 km) . Or am I mistaken? How to do it?
    Maybe someone who has done this could "chime in". I know from my experience in handling cells that can take some pretty rough handling at that stage but would need to be shipped with some bees to maintain the temps. The shipping of "ripe" queen cells is tricky and requires a dependable overnight delivery system as there is only about a 24 hour window to get them in.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Introduce virgin queens of a different strain

    Dr. Kefuss only sell capped cell (with 10 days) at the apiary. The prices are almost the same for virgins queens.

    The battery box dedicated cost more than 100 virgin queens. A friend of mine tells me that in a gender situation, he brought capped cells from Bordeaux, another french city a little closer than Toulouse, the french city where I will get these queens, and had a hit of around 10 %.

    Beepro this option is not ruled out at all, but I lean more towards the option virgin queens .
    This option has an advantage that delight me: will require me that I work with different logistics and procedures that I have not used so far, and I want to go through this experience, learn from it and master the procedures.

    However 'll train all procedures in advance with my virgin queens. Right now I have a lot of information but I lack the training of the " hand " doing the procedures.

    >there is only about a 24 hour window to get them in> Yes Jim, another issue.
    Last edited by Eduardo Gomes; 01-18-2015 at 03:51 PM. Reason: adding information

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