squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience - Page 98
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  1. #1941
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    If my math is right based your recent reply you have 14 colonies which are showing signs of pulling through?
    22 colonies prior to the outbreak. current hive count is 14. half are looking ok by outward observation and have not been inspected or tested. whether the other half that have been confirmed efb postitive pull through or not is yet to be determined.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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  3. #1942

    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    juhani, are you obtaining laboratory or field test confirmation that these colonies are positive for efb? (vita field test kit used here)

    do you have the opportunity to have your samples dna sequence typed so that the 'strain' might be indentified? (we can not get that here to the best of my knowledge)

    As I wrote earlier I have sent honey samples for a test, not an a regular basis, just now and then, no AFB, hel-of-a-lot EFB.

    There are no kits (Vita field or else) available to buy here.

    As far as i know there is no service available for identification of different strains.

  4. #1943
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Square
    If it is any consultation to you? You will get more honey on one or two of the hives that you listed how many supers you have on them than I will off of all ten of my hives. Something about when given lemons, make lemonade. Hoping the best for you under the circumstances.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  5. #1944
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    As I wrote earlier I have sent honey samples for a test, not an a regular basis, just now and then, no AFB, hel-of-a-lot EFB.
    of you saying juhani that honey from your apiaries was sampled, and from those samples the lab was able to grow efb from a high percentage of the samples?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #1945
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    052219 swarm.jpg

    i had purposed to take down my swarm traps a couple of weeks ago because i felt we were past swarm season here with the summer dearth just around the corner, plus i wanted to see if the 8 year old bt aizawai i used on the comb in them had prevented wax moths for the past 2 months.

    but i didn't make time for that and as luck would have it this swarm moved in on tuesday. it came out of one of my non-efb infected hives, a single deep with five supers full of honey that could have used another super or two, but i didn't have any supers not exposed to the efb and just left it as is.

    they got crowded and even though it would be an iffy proposition for this swarm to establish before winter left to its own devices they sent it out anyway.

    i'll use it as a provacative test to see if some of the comb i've cleaned up from the efb hives will infect the colony.

    tomorrow morning i'll take a look at the newly hatched larvae to see if any shows signs of efb. if not, i'll put 5 frames of cleaned up naturally drawn brood comb that is no more than a year or two old into what is currently the empty bottom 5 frame deep.

    should be interesting.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #1946
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Gotta love finding that on your trap. I'm interested to know about the efb. BTW, did the beek nearby that most likely brought it into the area properly treat everything?
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  8. #1947
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeguppy View Post
    BTW, did the beek nearby that most likely brought it into the area properly treat everything?
    i found out after the fact that there are 4 'new' beeks within flying distance of my yards. the worst case is one that has lost all four of their colonies for the past 3 years in a row and don't know why. 'they just left.....'

    sheesh.

    i'm asking our state's apiary protection unit to look into it.

    i'm also reaching out to our local club that for the most part is propping up these new beekeepers, and will be asking them to explain to beginners that keeping an eye out for collapse and doing whatever it takes to prevent robbing is the bare minimum expected when you take on the responsibility of 'having' bees.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #1948
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ... even though it would be an iffy proposition for this swarm to establish before winter left to its own devices they sent it out anyway.
    Do yall have a June Tallow tree flow? It sounds like this queen comes from good stock.
    David. The way you want to keep bees is most likely at least as good as any way that I could suggest. Probably better.

  10. #1949
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    yes, good stock david. probably very similar to what you have. tallow i don't think we have here.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #1950
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    an excerpt from an email i sent to one of the collaborating scientists:

    "At this time I have 14 out of 21 multi-winter treatment free survivor colonies that became infected, The remaining 7 colonies do not appear to be affected and have already put up record for me (over 200 lbs. per hive) honey crops.

    I have isolated 5 apparently healthy colonies to 2 yards, a third yard has a mix of 4 small infected and 2 large apparantly healthy colonies. A fourth yard has 3 small infected. Of the 15 affected 8 are now dead (euthanized after getting to small to save) 7 are receiving oxytet. Its too early to know if the oxytet is going to work, and most of the colonies receiving oxytet have dwindled to less the 2 deep Langstroth frames in size"
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #1951
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i'm also reaching out to our local club that for the most part is propping up these new beekeepers, and will be asking them to explain to beginners that keeping an eye out for collapse and doing whatever it takes to prevent robbing is the bare minimum expected when you take on the responsibility of 'having' bees.
    Good luck with that, over here, despite massive education attempts, i still find people leaving deadouts to be robbed constantly. They often have no idea why the bees died, but make no attempt to bee proof them.


    Slight aside, re your "the bees left" comment, over here when hives died, the beekeeper regardless how little they knew, would say they died. But now people are reading the internet and overseas sites, there are more and more mostly new beekeepers saying "they left".

    The problem with social media is there is just so much information, much of it conflicting, that new beekeepers are forced to pick and choose what "sounds right" to them, which is not always what is actually right.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #1952
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Good luck with that, over here, despite massive education attempts, i still find people leaving deadouts to be robbed constantly. They often have no idea why the bees died, but make no attempt to bee proof them.
    understood ot, oh boy understood.

    i feel i owe it to community, but i'll likely send word through someone more active with the local club and who will be more diplomatic than i about it.

    but i am already embracing this as the 'new normal'. and i guess that puts me now in the same boat as most people posting here.

    one strategy going forward is to spread my colonies out and get them as isolated from any others as i can.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #1953
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    I hope you have good results with your inspector. I suspect there are a lot of 'bee havers' in my area and some of the older guys emphasis that. Constant calls regarding swarms. We even went to one meeting and never went back due to the 'ok to just let your hives continually swarm each year' attitude, which we find irresponsible. Those bees are going somewhere and most likely causing people monetary losses.
    I noticed this weekend that some of my hives have large bees in them. My hives are on natural sized comb and smaller. I have no way to know where the drift is coming from. The possible solution that keeps running through my mind is to put robber cages on all the hives, but I don't know if that would work. For those that just let their hives continually die off, I wish the companies pushed robber cages as part of the initial package. At least the rest of us may be better protected.
    Beek since 2016: Hardiness Zone 9a: in NW Florida

  15. #1954
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Unless you own an island, the best you can do is respond to what your bees tell you. As to controlling all around you, try it if you feel like putting a lot of good time to a hopeless cause. Even if it is the other guy and you have to live with it for a bit, they won't last that long if all die every year. If they are not receptive to you if you actually try and help them, you might just make them a small amount better and make them last a bit longer then they should but a leopard will not change his spots.

    They may want help though and that would be a win. I don't use robber screens and the only hive I ever had die, I did let it get robbed out but it was also only about three combs total in the hive. If I thought it had honey in it, I would probably try and close it up cause I am greedy and would want it for myself but my boxes have so many worm holes and chewed corners that they may be impossible to make bee proof. I am not going to stop bee keeping because of this.

    I think it is part of the reason some have successes doing things different then others who can not do the same. It is somewhat dependant on what is going on around you. That being the case, then it is subject to change for the better or the worse. Ted Turner bought ten square miles of land. He could probably control those around him but most of us can only respond.
    JMHO
    gww

    Ps If somebody's hive swarms, I hope they pick my trap for a home.
    zone 5b

  16. #1955
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Unless you own an island, the best you can do is respond to what your bees tell you. As to controlling all around you, try it if you feel like putting a lot of good time to a hopeless cause. Even if it is the other guy and you have to live with it for a bit, they won't last that long if all die every year. If they are not receptive to you if you actually try and help them, you might just make them a small amount better and make them last a bit longer then they should but a leopard will not change his spots.

    They may want help though and that would be a win.
    GWW:

    While I can completely identify with both sides of the isolation question, I appreciate your attitude of seeking to continually educate and advocate. While I know this can be hard and often underappreciated, it seems to me that the better relationships I have with the beekeepers around me, the better off my yard will be in the long-run. That said, there will be some who will not be open nor interested to any advice and faced with that reality, we ultimately have to plan our beekeeping efforts with the assumption that there will be dead-out or absconded volumes which will be in our foraging radius that might negatively impact our operation.

    Yet, we hope for positive outcomes. As it says in Ecclesiastes: He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap.

  17. #1956
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    (post from another thread copied here for future reference)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    While fewer colonies spread across more landscape makes some sense, there is a point where it becomes uneconomic. Brother Adam was in favor of a hive stand that held 2 colonies. This has huge advantages when managing bees as there is another colony nearby if brood is needed or to facilitate other manipulations.
    i agree with that dar, but for now and until i see if and how my yards recover from the efb outbreak, there won't be any moving of any resources or equipment from one hive to another.

    the exception to this is that after this season's honey is harvested from what at this point appear to be hives unaffected by the efb, i plan to remove one frame of brood, one frame of stores, and a couple frame's shake of bees to make up nucs.

    it make take another season or two to see if recovery is possible. once i get the hives more widely separated and decrease the # of hives per yard, and if irradiation or some other means of equipment sterilization does not become available, i'll be moving to a strict destruction by fire approach for any that i find efb in.

    i've got a least one affected hive that appears to have a terramycin resistant strain of efb. it continues to dwindle and has affected larvae after 2 weeks of treatment. this colony will likely get euthanized next weekend and the frames sent off for analysis.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #1957
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    GWW:

    While I can completely identify with both sides of the isolation question, I appreciate your attitude of seeking to continually educate and advocate. While I know this can be hard and often underappreciated, it seems to me that the better relationships I have with the beekeepers around me, the better off my yard will be in the long-run. That said, there will be some who will not be open nor interested to any advice and faced with that reality, we ultimately have to plan our beekeeping efforts with the assumption that there will be dead-out or absconded volumes which will be in our foraging radius that might negatively impact our operation.

    Yet, we hope for positive outcomes. As it says in Ecclesiastes: He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap.
    Also keep in mind the "untended" colonies. last fall I had 3 calls for removal quite late. One in a Garage wall and one in a deer blind wall, One in the stall wall of a barn. It was early October and I really did not want to go thru the work only to have it be too late to have them make the winter. All 3 are dead this spring. So the rob outs could be any where, known or unknown. If we are "lucky" they are dead out from Varroa, However if there is an EFB tree some where, this out break could pop up from time to time until it is completely destroyed. Could be another swarm moves in and sets up and gets reinfected. There are some scenarios that are not appealing. a Apiary site could be ruined.
    Be Vigilant
    GG

  19. #1958
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    I can not remember for sure where I read it now. I read something in effect that efb will pop up bad and then be gone for good the next year. I do remember it was using data for areas and not apiaries. I did take it that it is not impossible for it to leave with out intervention. Show up that way too. I don't write this to discount problems or experiences that people are having. I don't question other other peoples experiences cause they are the ones that do know. It is just something I read due to a day of searching due to this thread.

    I do agree with gray goose that it is a touchy thing trying to blame others for things that happen when many things could cause it. Doesn't mean it is impossible that some ones hive could be the cause but knowing for sure is harder. I do believe that if it is another bee keeper that it will take care of its self with time one way or the other. That may not help the pain but a guy has to decide where he is going to spend his time and running investigations might be more time consuming then taking care of the problem best you can and keeping your fingers crossed. It is a small comfort that there are bad diseases in nature (not just bees) that do seem to run their course and then fade back into the background. There are always exceptions but the odds seem to be fair that bad spells can be overcome.

    Squarepeg is ahead of the game in that he has recognized some things he can do in the future to mitigate future efb problems. A hurtful lesson to be sure but proof of a beekeeper who is continuing to improve his skill at the art of bee keeping and taking us along for the ride where we may also benefit.

    I do know that I am a hermit and keep my stuff how I keep them and when approached by anyone on how I do things, my first assessment is are they trying to boss me or really trying to help me. I love people who intention is to try and help me but still make the final decision. I do have the ability to cut my own nose of to spite my face is somebody approaches me and I perceive the intent that they are trying to exercise some type of authority over me. I could even be wrong and the wrong approach could make me do even more wrong. I do love people who in their hearts are wanting to help me though. I have had both types of neighbors.

    I do also agree with gray goose that things could happen that are out of control that could ruin apiary sites.

    Still, except for nuclear disasters and its waste, most things are a cycle of things that eventually pass with continual changes up and down but not staying completely static.

    I appreciate the chance to learn through you guys. Thanks for posting your actions and progress.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  20. #1959
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Also keep in mind the "untended" colonies.
    Good point, GG.

  21. #1960
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by gww View Post
    Squarepeg is ahead of the game in that he has recognized some things he can do in the future to mitigate future efb problems. A hurtful lesson to be sure but proof of a beekeeper who is continuing to improve his skill at the art of bee keeping and taking us along for the ride where we may also benefit.
    I concur with this sentiment- there is much to be learned from SP's experience, and I expect he will emerge an even better beekeeper than he already is as a result.

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