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squarepeg 2015-? treatment free experience

497K views 2K replies 127 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
the recent arctic blast led to over 72 continuous hours of subfreezing temps at my location in northeast alabama. i realize that's not too drastic when compared to what many of you in the north see but for us that is well below normal for here and it was the first real overwintering challenge for my bees. i made the rounds with the stethoscope today and to my relief i still have decent cluster roar in 18/18 hives.

i had mentioned in other threads that i was considering chronicling my 2015 season here on the forum. the purpose for doing so is because there has been interest expressed for more detailed information regarding the real life successes and failures involved with keeping bees off treatments. so i begin this thread with that expressed intent, primarily for information sharing and educational purposes, with all humility and with no desire to toot my own horn or otherwise. the one selfish objective i have in doing this is the hope that some of you seasoned veterans will chime in with feedback and suggestions.

background: as stated in my tagline i started with bees in the summer of 2010. i started with stock obtained from a supplier who began breeding from feral cut outs in 1996 and has not used treatments the whole time. i still get some queen cells from him from time to time but mostly propagate my own queens via splits and grafts. i run all langstroth equipment, and most hives are a single 10 deep with medium supers. i use 5 frame deeps for nucs. foundation is mostly ritecell, although i have begun adding foundationless frames to the deeps. i generally avoid artificial feeds, but have made exceptions when indicated. the operation is a sideline business (llc) intended to produce supplemental income through honey and nuc sales.

2015 goals: i seek to maximize the profitability of the operation to the extent possible while maintaining the colonies off treatments and avoiding artificial feeds. my specific goals this year involve having every colony 'earning its keep' by providing harvestable honey and/or nucs. i would like to average one nuc sale and 100 lbs of honey sold for every hive that survives winter, and then end up with around 20 established colonies and a handful of nucs going into next winter.

so much for the introductory post. i'll take this opportunity to offer my many thanks to the fine contributors on the forum who have been a huge part of the learning process for me. here's wishing everyone a successful 2015 of beekeeping! :)
 
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#98 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

and here's the bottom board from the dead out i mentioned in post 91. this one went silent and appeared to be getting robbed. the capping crumbs on the bottom board confirmed robbing, and this one also had a few dead mites present on the bottom board. brood comb pics to follow soon.

View attachment 15963
 
#102 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

For mite issues read virus issues which shorten the life of the bees. This is especially critical over winter as some clusters dwindle to a point where they are no longer viable. A cold snap usually kills the small cluster or they die from isolation starvation.
 
#103 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

For mite issues read virus issues which shorten the life of the bees. This is especially critical over winter as some clusters dwindle to a point where they are no longer viable. A cold snap usually kills the small cluster or they die from isolation starvation.
good summary jonathan, to which i would add that the small clusters can also result when those viruses cause brood disease that prevents the rearing of an adequate population of overwintering bees during the fall brood up. the summer bees gradually die off leaving the colony with a dwindled population that is not able to survive winter.
 
#104 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

Squarepeg, reading the link in your post #115 was like the dawn of a new day for my understanding of why some bees just never prosper. I lost three NUC sized colonies of bees this winter that just never did prosper. (Had never lost a hive during the winter before this one - have wintered almost 20 years in Wyoming, Alaska and Texas). Thanks for that link! :)
 
#118 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

Squarepeg, reading the link in your post #115 was like the dawn of a new day for my understanding of why some bees just never prosper. I lost three NUC sized colonies of bees this winter that just never did prosper. (Had never lost a hive during the winter before this one - have wintered almost 20 years in Wyoming, Alaska and Texas). Thanks for that link! :)
I don't want to cause a problem here, but I am lost trying to find the link mentioned above. Is the post number a typo, or how can a reference to post #115 be made in post #104?

Just guide me to the link, please.
 
#107 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

nice to hear from you bbf. i had measurable success with walt's methods but not to the degree that others have had. we're not sure if it has to due with using medium supers instead of shallows, or perhaps my survivor mutts are what they are because they are good at swarming. another possibility is that they are more influenced by the break in comb between boxes than other bees.

when i offset the frames, some of my colonies simply stopped moving up into the next box, reestablished a solid band of honey in the uppermost box they were working, and proceeded into swarm preps.

the motivation for aligning frames came from observing that when given a second deep of alternating frames of honey and empty comb the bees brooded all the way to the top and did not reestablish a solid band of honey. these colonies did not begin swarm preps and had they been supered might have made a big crop. unfortunately they were slated for splitting so i'll never know.
 
#108 · (Edited)
Re: squarepeg 2015

weighed the hives today and not surprisingly the bees are utilizing stores along with incoming fresh pollen for their early brood up. after the upcoming arctic blast i'll be moving a few frames from the heaviest to the lightest. there should be enough to go around and get them to consistent foraging weather. lots of pollen and nectar coming in today, along with moderately strong orientation flights.


FEB. 14 HIVE WEIGHTS:

LEGEND:

HIVE: WT. FEB. 14, CHANGE FROM OCT. 31 TO NOV. 30, CHANGE FROM NOV. 30 TO JAN. 4, CHANGE FROM JAN. 4 TO FEB 14, (ESTIMATED LBS. HONEY IN HIVE), YEAR

#2: 85.5 +1, -2, -9.5 (30.5) 2011 NUC
#4: 67.5 +.5, -4, -3.5 (22.5) 2012 NUC
#5: 89 -4, -2.5, -10.5 (44) 2014 SWARM
#7: 95 SAME, -1, -10 (50) 2013 NUC, 10.7% MITE COUNT 10/19/14
#8: 76 +3, +.5, -12.5 (31) 2014 NUC
#9: 86 -3.5, +.5, -12.5 (41) 2012 NUC, 13.4% MITE COUNT 10/19/14
#10: 68 -1, -1, -6 (23) 2014 NUC
#11: 79 -5.5, -4, -5.5 (34) 2014 NUC
B1: 73 -1, +1, SUPER ADDED (28) 2014 NUC
B2: 67 -1.5, -.5, SUPER ADDED (22) 2014 NUC
B3: 71 +6 (HONEY ADDED), SAME, SUPER ADDED (26) 2014 NUC
B4: 68 -5, +2, SUPER ADDED (23) 2014 NUC
B5: 75 -1.5, +.5, SUPER ADDED (30) 2014 NUC
B6: 70 +6 (HONEY ADDED), SAME, SUPER ADDED (25) 2014 NUC
B7: 76 -1, +.5, -6 (31) 2014 NUC
B8: 72 +1.5, +1, SUPER ADDED (27) 2014 SWARM
 
#109 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

In starting this thread, Squarepeg has shown his willingness to be quite open and specific in sharing his treatment free experiences. I, for one, find this invaluable and am interested in reading about them and perhaps learning something in the process. Let's respect this thread and move the bickering elsewhere.
 
#117 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

Yes, there have been studies that found DWV in the drone's semen and concluded that the drone can infect the virgin queen when they mate. This is why it is so important to control varroa in both the queen mother and drone mother colonies in your breeding yards. Low varroa numbers reduces the DWV titers in the colonies.
 
#121 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015

Yes, there have been studies that found DWV in the drone's semen and concluded that the drone can infect the virgin queen when they mate. This is why it is so important to control varroa in both the queen mother and drone mother colonies in your breeding yards. Low varroa numbers reduces the DWV titers in the colonies.
Turns on its head the idea that only drones in tip top condition get to do the mating, or it opens up more questions about some drones being carriers but asymptomatic, could this be inheritable and virgins with the same trait mating with such drones being dwv proof?
 
#123 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

we've been a week now with sub-freezing temps and the forecast is for continued cold with no flying weather due for at least another week or two. although i just confirmed cluster roar in all of the hives at the home yard i am concerned about it getting this cold for this long just as the bees are starting to brood up and at the time when they should be out working the early flows. i won't be surprised if the smallest colonies end up getting stuck on brood and losing contact with their stores.

the extended winter we had here last year resulted a measurable decrease in production. my sense is that this year's two to three week delay in foraging weather is going to put the bees a brood cycle or two behind, thus making it difficult for me to make strong splits early enough to still have enough workforce to exploit our main flow.

i've not used any supplemental feeds these past three seasons and my preference is for an all natural diet, but since i have laid out production goals for this year and given the weird weather i've decided to provide protein patties to give them a boost until reliable field forage starts coming in. i'm going to give dr. latshaw's 'bag o' bee food' a try.

as far as the thread goes, i was surprised to see that barry made it 'sticky'. i'm not sure what that means except that it stays at the top instead of aging it's way down the list. personally it's a little awkward for me. as i shared in the op i'm only doing this for information sharing purposes and not to draw attention to myself. i recognize that there are other notable contributors on the forum who are having success keeping bees off treatments and the willingness to share their experiences is appreciated by me and i'm sure many others.

as far as getting off topic goes i am as guilty as anyone. i really do enjoy getting feedback and having others compare their own observations to these. the nice thing about keeping any thread on topic is for the benefit of someone coming to it anew and not having to muddle through a lot of extraneous stuff. i have appreciated most of the replies and i hope that those of you with an interest will keep them coming.

many thanks. :)
 
#124 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

i'm not sure what that means except that it stays at the top instead of aging it's way down the list. personally it's a little awkward for me.
You'll get use to it. :) I did it because you're going through the trouble of chronicling your experience for all of us. In this case I think it deserves to remain at the top.

as far as getting off topic goes i am as guilty as anyone. i really do enjoy getting feedback and having others compare their own observations to these. the nice thing about keeping any thread on topic is for the benefit of someone coming to it anew and not having to muddle through a lot of extraneous stuff.
We all go off topic at times. I've decided in this thread I'm going to be a bit less lenient. As long as the discussion only goes one level off at times, I'll let it stay. But second level stuff gets deleted. This happens when one person makes an off topic remark (I'll let it stay) and then someone else decides to quote that off topic remark (I'll delete it) as grounds for them to expand on the off topic discussion and before you know it, it's not about your experience and what you're doing but now we're into causal chains, of which I got rid of right after the disco era.
 
#126 · (Edited)
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

i took a drive to the out yard this morning and discovered my third loss of the winter. it was b8, a 2014 caught swarm, and the hive i mentioned in an earlier post that i was hearing less cluster roar compared to rest. i'm finding the stethoscope to be a fairly reliable tool for identifying those colonies that are on their way out.

i took a quick look inside and found a baseball sized group of bees in the first super that were tightly clustered and apparently frozen to death. all i could do for today was put the hive back together and close up the entrance. i'll be bringing it back home and getting it into the freezer soon. photos of the comb from this one and the other two will be forthcoming.

this makes 3 out of 18 this winter putting my losses at 16.6%. the first loss was almost expected as it was a colony that dinked along all season. the other two have a common denominator in that i moved a super of brood down to the bottom of the stack while they were in the middle of their fall brood up, a mistake that i shall not make in the future.

so that leaves me with 15 still kickin' and my sense is that the cluster roar has gotten louder in those in the past few weeks. i'm hoping this means that the first rounds of brood are emerging. i know that two are queenright, but i haven't had the opportunity to verify that in the rest. hive weights are good, and my protein supplement from latshaw's is on the way. it looks like the first opportunity for in depth inspections is a couple of weeks away.
 
#127 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

i retrieved deadout b8 from the out yard and broke it down today. as suspected it was a case of a small cluster getting stuck on brood during a cold snap. the volume of bees was more like grapefruit sized, there was a palm sized patch of spotty capped brood on both sides of the middle frame in the first super, and the queen was present.

there were stores in the second super, but no bees. here's a view of the top of the first super:

View attachment 16223

a side view of the middle frame:

View attachment 16224

and the other side:

View attachment 16225

with the bees brushed off:

View attachment 16226

the queen is center frame:

View attachment 16227
 
#129 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

i tried uncapping some of that brood to look for viral disease but it was still in the larval stage. no mites were seen in the brood and i couldn't find any frass. i think this colony was marginal but would have likely made it if we would have had more typical weather for february.
 
#135 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

Snow is 8 inches deep here and about the same at my Mother's place which is 15 miles from Squarepeg. Bees are buzzing strongly in the colonies I keep on the edge of my porch so no problems so far. I will check them carefully as soon as the weather breaks, this is the most vulnerable time for developing colonies as the first major round of brood emerges.
 
#136 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

i took a listen today before the snow started falling and still have strong buzzing in 15 out of my 16 remaining hives, with the other one not so loud and having more dead bees at the entrance than the others. that one is shaping up to be a good candidate for loss #4 this winter.
 
#139 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

we ended up with 8" of snow here. the forecast is for a gradual moderation in temperature with some potential for foraging next week. as fusion power points out the snow storm could not have hit at a worse time. the colonies are at their lowest point population wise and are going to stay stuck on the broodnest. getting through this will be a real test for them.
 
#140 · (Edited)
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

I'm here from across the atlantic to hope that your hives overcome this difficulty. I am sure they succeed. Are wonderful and very resistant insects.

About 3 years ago I sold a few hives. The buyer asked me to provide him with a sample of dead bees to have them to do the health analysis to the bees. I did the harvest (there were about a 30 bees) put them in a small plastic bag for about 16h in the refrigerator. When I took them from the refrigerator the next day apparently were all dead. On the way, heated inside pick up, and came back to life. My mouth fell open .
 
#141 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015 treatment free experience

many thanks for that eduardo. those that make it through will indeed prove their heartiness. we'll have to see what this set back means for the season in terms of my production goals. usually by now they are beginning to rear drones and i have made splits as early as the end of march. this will be a test of my ability to adapt as well.
 
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