squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience - Page 102
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  1. #2021
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Having said that, I'll admit hard bond has worked for some. But for others it has not, and is clearly not working in this example.
    This gets down to needing relative isolation so mating is limited to resistant genetics and starting with queens with some level of resistance. So long as there are survivors, there is something to breed from. Caveat that there has to be enough breeding population to avoid issues with inbreeding. I would not characterize this as "not working", rather "not working as intended".
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

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  3. #2022
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    the persisting ridge of high pressure that is allowing for record high temperatures across the southeast is making for a rather uncomfortable end to summer here. it also is resulting in my location registering moderate drought at this time. i am pretty much in centered in the tan colored area up the the northeast corner of the state:

    https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Curre...onitor.aspx?AL

    this has resulted our yards and pastures starting to turn brown, some of the trees shedding their (brown) leaves early, and the ponds turning into puddles again.

    i'm seeing a few different types of pollen coming in including goldenrod but haven't caught a whiff of goldenrod nectar, and i doubt seriously that there is much nectar of any type coming in.

    the plan is to sit tight until after the temperature moderates a bit and we get a shower or two before going through the remaining 10 colonies plus one added nuc to see what's what.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #2023
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    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    This gets down to needing relative isolation so mating is limited to resistant genetics and starting with queens with some level of resistance. So long as there are survivors, there is something to breed from. Caveat that there has to be enough breeding population to avoid issues with inbreeding. I would not characterize this as "not working", rather "not working as intended".
    There are some pre-varroa studies indicating in part of Louisiana and, I believe, other areas, that the gene pool of managed bees was different from the gene pool of feral bees. I am fairly confidant that the gene pool of my bees more or less mirrors that of local feral bees. If the local feral bees are becoming more varroa resistant and tolerant, then my bees are as well. I don't know exactly how this relates to Mike Bispham's, Oldtimer's, and your comments, but I can't help but think that it does relate.
    David. Cheerful beekeeping

  5. #2024
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    As the background population becomes mite tolerant, the managed colonies gain tolerance to the extent that their genetics are derived from the ferals.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  6. #2025
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    Oct 2016
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    Albany NY
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    Sorry to hear you have a bummer fall flow, sp. We have quite the opposite in upstate NY. Summer dearth was wonky / early (i thought I gave up most of my honey to splits) then flow came back during normal dearth time and went right into heavy and early fall flow (mostly goldenrod and knotweed). I pulled my supers early so they could backfill broodnest for winter before nectar dries up. Too early, it turns out; now they are on the cusp of swarming....
    Happy beekeeping everybody!

  7. #2026
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    the 'moderate drought' i mentioned in my last post post has now been upgraded to 'severe drought'. still no rain here and still having record setting heat indexes at 100+ degrees f.

    i've lost 2 more colonies as of last weekend. one of them was queenless and broodless with a handful of old workers remaining. the other was also queenless with just a handful of bees but still had a little bit of brood which tested positive for efb. neither of these hives had been robbed out.

    down to just 8 colonies that are dealing with severe drought as they prepare for winter.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #2027
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    Jun 2018
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    Boaz, KY, USA
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    Squarepeg:

    Thank you for the update and I am sincerely sorry to hear about your continued woes. You mentioned the EFB status of the second queenless colony, but do you assume the first queenless colony was as a result of EFB too? I imagine with no brood there is no way of determining conclusively?

    Will you also destroy the woodenware associated with these colonies, or have you found a way to non-destructively sanitize?

    Its awfully hot and dry here too... here's hoping that God sees fit to send the Southeast some rain soon.

    Best of luck with your remaining colonies- I do hope you are planning to rebuild.

    Russ

  9. #2028
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    many thanks russ, i really do appreciate the sentiment.

    no way to be sure in the one that was broodless, as you point out nothing to sample. i lean toward queen failure because i would expect to find at least a little spotty capped brood if it was efb.

    yes to the burning the frames, especially those containing dead brood and bee bread.

    i will attempt to disinfect empty super comb with bleach as previously described, not knowing for sure if this is going to work or not, it's just that there is so much of it.

    if efb shows up next year in a hive that has been given any of this disinfected comb everything gets destroyed and not given a second chance. no more antibiotics for me as my success rate was poor with it and there remains the issue of the bacteria lingering in the honey and beebread, as well as the problem of having a contagious colony around.

    we'll see if i have anything to rebuild with come next spring. luckily i have access to splits from multi-winter treatment free stock from about 4 other beekeepers if i need it, plus i have the opportunity to place swarm traps in relatively isolated spots where only feral wild types live.

    if the efb continues to show up i'll just keep burning and likely decrease my footprint to just a few colonies for personal use and enjoyment. i am too risk averse to invest again the time and money to be a sideliner when all it takes is a stray bacteria to clean me out.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #2029
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    Louisville, Colorado, USA
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    I've been off the forum for a while but i always enjoyed this thread.

    Sorry to hear about this turn of events for you. If anyone deserves to be successful it's you, sp.
    You work hard with your bees, keep careful records and you.have always been impeccable in your courtesy and grace dealing with posters here.

    Take care, brother and best of luck to you. I hope the bees turn it around next year.

  11. #2030
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    sincere thanks for that arnie, it means a lot to me.

    i'm keeping an open mind about going forward with no firm expectations one way or the other.

    i am grateful that i was able to pass some of this stock on to a few other folks along the way and that they have propagated more from those...
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #2031
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i will attempt to disinfect empty super comb with bleach as previously described, not knowing for sure if this is going to work or not, it's just that there is so much of it.
    This has been tried here as an AFB cleaning attempt, (even though it's illegal here), not successful because it is very difficult to get the liquid into every cell.
    BTW not me doing that but I have fed syrup by injecting it straight into comb and from that I know how hard it is to get thorough penetration.

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    if efb shows up next year in a hive that has been given any of this disinfected comb everything gets destroyed and not given a second chance. no more antibiotics for me as my success rate was poor with it and there remains the issue of the bacteria lingering in the honey and beebread, as well as the problem of having a contagious colony around.
    Rather than burn, could it be possible to set up a seperate quarantine yard and lump all infected gear into a few hives and dose them solidly with antibiotic over an extended period till things are cleaned up. Once sure infection is wiped out, normal hive microflora could be restored by introducing frames from untreated hives?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    we'll see if i have anything to rebuild with come next spring.
    I am certain you will. What's more, these will be the survivors.

    With such bad infestation around you, might be that the beekeepers involved will get discouraged and give up their hobby, thereby solving the problem.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  13. #2032
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Square...
    You had a very high per hive profit margin before this bad spell. Agriculture can be a gripe sometimes. Even the experts of old had big set backs. You will be retiring someday and if you are like me at all, the future might take little turns one way or the other. When I first retired, I had quite a few little projects that kept me quite busy for the first few years. Now I am a bit more relaxed (though hot spots of activity still happen here and there).

    This was a bad set back but I doubt will end your interest in bee keeping and so for the rest, watch for opportunities and go with the flow and see where you end up. I don't say this to be preachy or to discount the real issues that have had to be faced by you. I think you have did great even with the hurtful set backs and I know I have profited from this thread. I am sure the people that promote that giving is better then receiving does not hit home very well when facing what you are going through but do say that you have at least the fact that you have given and that is something.

    I am hoping that good times for you again are right around the corner.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

  14. #2033
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    This has been tried here as an AFB cleaning attempt, (even though it's illegal here), not successful because it is very difficult to get the liquid into every cell.
    yes, thats my concern ot. the frames i am cleaning have no honey or beebread in them. the thinking is that efb cannot survive if exposed to oxygen, so you wouldn't expect any to survive on empty comb. efb does not produce spores like afb does.

    i was fairly successful with filling the empty comb with a garden hose nozzle set on 'mist' mode. i then shook out the water by hand, followed by blowing the comb 'dry' with compressed air. i then used a fan to air dry them overnite. the next day i used a bottle sprayer with very concentrated bleach set on 'mist' mode, and feel i was fairly successful getting bleach into the cells. after another night of drying on the fan the comb received a spray of bt aizawai and will remain that way until next spring. i almost 'dare' any anaerobic bacteria to survive on that comb until then.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Rather than burn, could it be possible to set up a seperate quarantine yard and lump all infected gear into a few hives and dose them solidly with antibiotic over an extended period till things are cleaned up. Once sure infection is wiped out, normal hive microflora could be restored by introducing frames from untreated hives?
    perhaps. i'm not confident i could find a place where i could be sure that there were no other colonies, including wild type ferals, that wouldn't be exposed so i probably wouldn't risk it. i think if someone wanted to salvage an efb infected colony the best way would be to feed it oxytet syrup for a week and then shook swarm it onto all new equipment and burn all of the old. the problem is that the bacteria can live a long time at the bottom of a honey cell or a beebread cell. too much trouble if you ask me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I am certain you will. What's more, these will be the survivors.
    that would be a nice scenario ot.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    With such bad infestation around you, might be that the beekeepers involved will get discouraged and give up their hobby, thereby solving the problem.
    from what i hear the beginning beekeepers who imported colonies from out of state and let them collapse, (no way to prove it but in my opinion the most likely source for the efb), have decided not to keep bees anymore. 9 out of 9 of my colonies that were located near them are gone as are all of their colonies. i most likely transferred the efb from that yard to my home yard during some movement i did in the early spring.

    so far no one else in the area has reported efb. part of my strict burn regimen has to do with containing it as much as possible going forward. fingers crossed.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #2034
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    lots of wisdom in what you say there gww. so many thanks for that!
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #2035
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Well, all the best
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #2036
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Well, all the best
    i know that is heart felt ot. many thanks for weighing in and for all your encouragement and support along the way.

    just past the spring equinox for you, how are your colonies looking so far?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #2037
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Mine, bit of a mix to be honest. Some came through weaker than normal, there's also some overly strong ones. Once I would have balanced them out, but now because of the increasing number of pathogens around I no longer balance the hives unless one is below critical mass to make a crop. That's one of my swarm control tools gone, so instead I've just taken off a load of packages from the strong ones which have been sold locally. The main flow where I am should start in 2 or 3 weeks, some hives are very light but I'm trying not to feed sugar, fingers crossed they scrape through till incoming nectar is greater than consumption!
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #2038
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    understood ot. the nice thing about the smaller ones assuming they make it is that they are less likely to swarm and can make a better crop than a strong one that ends up swarming.

    also understood about not moving bees and resources around because of pathogens. sadly i'll be avoiding that as well for the same reason. it will be a hard decision about what to do with resources from winter dead outs, i.e. whether to repurpose them or not.

    hope you have a great season!
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #2039
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post

    i will attempt to disinfect empty super comb with bleach as previously described, not knowing for sure if this is going to work or not, it's just that there is so much of it.

    i am too risk averse to invest again the time and money to be a sideliner when all it takes is a stray bacteria to clean me out.
    Squarepeg:

    Thank you for your reply- I failed to remember you outlining your disinfection technique. I do hope for your sake that this will work out.

    I can only imagine how much time you have invested in your apiary over the past nine years, so I can appreciate that it is difficult to contemplate rebuilding- especially when "all it takes is a stray bacteria" to erase so much of the hard fought gains.

    I think I speak for many when I say I am pulling for you and am hopeful that with good friends and and a few good feral swarms you are able to rebuild better than ever.

    Let's also hope that your eight remaining colonies represent genetics that can survive anything that nature throws at them.

  21. #2040
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Litsinger View Post
    I think I speak for many when I say I am pulling for you and am hopeful that with good friends and and a few good feral swarms you are able to rebuild better than ever.

    Let's also hope that your eight remaining colonies represent genetics that can survive anything that nature throws at them.
    Well said. Squarepeg, I wish you well. You strike me as a man with the judgment and strength to rebound from this in one way or another.
    David. Cheerful beekeeping

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