squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience - Page 101
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  1. #2001
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    One thing I remember very well from articles in the 1960's was that spring manipulations that stress a colony set the stage for EFB.
    my next search project will be to locate and read those articles if they are still available.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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  3. #2002
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    If EFB is evolving to more viralent, it is likely the USA and UK strains will be different. If Mike Bisphams bees have thrown the disease off, it is likely a low viralence strain. It will be interesting to read his account of his EFB experience, once he posts it.

    Or has he already posted it somewhere if so is there a link?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #2003
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Agree also that in theory anyway, non treatment should favor less viralent diseases, and treatment plus management favour more viralent.

    My own reasoning is this. In a wild unmanaged population, a disease that is very infectious, plus quickly kills it's host, is in danger of exterminating it's host, and thereby exterminating itself. A less viralent strain that allows long term survival of it's host, can also continue to live, itself.

    But in a treated and man managed population, there will always be new hosts, the human managers will ensure that. So a disease variant most likely to prosper in this situation would be highly infectious, and highly viralent. Because that variant could spread quickly, and kill it's host quickly, ensuring spread by robbing. The less viralent and less infectious, would be taken out by treatment or the human management, before getting to spread much.

    That's my thoughts on the matter, all just theory though, bearing in mind that sometimes real world trumps theory and fools us all. i'm no scientist.

    I'm also dreading what will happen if EFB ever reaches my country. Our bees have never been exposed to it, and that may be true even going back thousands of years before they even reached our shores.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  5. #2004
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    If EFB is evolving to more viralent, it is likely the USA and UK strains will be different.
    perhaps. worldwide 35 different efb strains have been identified. 19 of these 35 have been found in the u.k., some more virulent than others.

    i invited mike to share his efb experience on his 'natural selection' thread. i hope he accepts.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #2005
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's my thoughts on the matter, all just theory though, and sometimes real world trumps theory and fools us all. i'm no scientist.
    you are in good company ot. randy oliver has been making pretty much the same point for some time now.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #2006
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    if i lose everything than i will likely be done as a sideliner producing honey and nucs for the public, and resort to catching swarms from the woods enough to keep a few hives for personal use.
    SP:

    I really do appreciate you chronicling your efforts and attendant results in dealing with EFB here. Selfishly I hope that your survivors comprise a stable foundation for your rebuilding efforts as I would really miss your insightful contributions here in the context of your sideline operation.

    Best of success to you in coming back.

    Russ

  8. #2007
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    the last volley of posts strayed a bit off topic and were move here:

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-thread/page13
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #2008
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    "One thing I remember very well from articles in the 1960's was that spring manipulations that stress a colony set the stage for EFB"

    Saw that 1st hand, had a overwintered nuc built in to a strong full sized hive and did a fly back split and they built like crazy, day 20 post split they were rocking and mostly filled the hive, came back day 30 and the hive was just destroyed by efb.
    It was in a top bar hive so they built from the front to the back, and you could read it like book... a wrecked comb or 2 of brood (1st to hatchout and been re layed in) 2-3 combs of sold capped brood, a few of a bit spoty capped brood, 2 or so realy spotty and then the open larva was just wrecked.
    best I can figger is the split being done with forgers, the bees aged out and disrupted the bee to brood ratio

  10. #2009
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    Default

    Msl, was that this year? What did you do about it? Did you find that anything worked? Did it spread? Good luck to all recovering and happy beekeeping!

  11. #2010
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    same questions as amibusiness, plus did you run a efb test or send samples off?

    i can understand how aggressive manipulations that spread the nest too thin can be a stressor. it's more difficult to understand how efb can occur unless the offending pathogen is present.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #2011
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    we are experiencing our typical summer dearth conditions here and for some reason the scattered rain showers are somehow managing to avoid my little corner of the world. even so the colonies are managing to find a little pollen here and there with a couple of different colors seen coming in during the morning hours.

    last week i noticed one hive that had very little activity at the entrance and not much roar heard when placing an ear to the hive. i suspected that this one may have gone queenless and this was confirmed yesterday when i went into it.

    this is a hive that managed to evade the efb outbreak and one that i had already harvested three medium supers of honey from. i found another 3.5 supers of capped honey still remaining that is now drying in my garage. there was no brood whatsoever, no sign of laying workers, nor any efb scales seen.

    what is remarkable is that despite there being only a few dozen bees remaining in the hive it did not get robbed nor was there any wax moth or hive beetle infestation. it was probably dumb luck, and at this point i'll take it, but finding this supports my hunch that my bees have a low propensity for robbing, and perhaps are above average in fending off the moths and beetles.

    losing this one drops my hive count from 11 down to 10. 7 of these did not get treated for efb, appear strong from entrance observations/listening to hive roar, and are yielding harvestable honey. the other 3 are a couple of months post otc treatment, appear to be ok from entrance observations, and are very light on stores.

    so far 12 medium supers of honey have been harvested and i think i'll be able to bring in a handful more supers. once it cools off a bit and the fall blooms start i'll be taking a careful look at how the fall brood up is going in all the hives.

    many thanks again to all following for your interest.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #2012
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    That sounds like very encouraging news about the EFB. I agree with your hunch about different bees inclination to rob. I can get away with things with my bees that would set off a robbing frenzy at my sons place.
    Frank

  14. #2013
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    True low robbing bees would also be less likely to contract diseases like EFB, perhaps it's another thing we should be breeding for.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  15. #2014
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Disinclination to rob does not equate with disinclination to drift. I read an article a few years ago that drifting bees may be more important for disease spread than robbing bees.

    While SP states he is in a dearth, my historic records for that area (I grew up less than 20 miles from his home) show that early August has a mild nectar flow from heartsease. Bees also usually produce cream/yellow pollen from the flowers. This has never been enough of a flow to sustain a colony, but it is usually enough to suppress robbing.

    A. M. Lamarckii (the Egyptian bee) is arguably the least inclined race to drift. They also have very good hygienic behavior and do not gather propolis. For these reasons, I would love to be able to bring in some queens to see if the traits could be concentrated into a breeding line.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  16. #2015
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I read an article a few years ago that drifting bees may be more important for disease spread than robbing bees.
    Got a link?

    It would be interesting to look at the article and see what kind of distances they are talking about, apiary circumstances, and other variables that they based their findings on.

    For example, in my view anyway, drifting between hives in the same apiary would account for a much larger number of transfered bees than would robbing (assuming a properly run apiary). But if we are talking a neighbouring beekeeper a mile and a half away who has foul brood dead outs, I would say robbing of those hives by my bees, would account for a lot more disease transfer to my own apiary, than would drift.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #2016
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    The article was in Bee Culture about 40 years ago so I'm sure it is not available online. You summarized it very well that drifting within an apiary is a problem. Seeley did some work to determine how much drifting occurs in colonies and iirc found that some drifting occurs with colonies separated by distances of a kilometer or more.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  18. #2017
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Seeley did some work to determine how much drifting occurs in colonies and iirc found that some drifting occurs with colonies separated by distances of a kilometer or more.
    Was that the 40 year old article, or a more recent one that you have a reference for?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #2018
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Seeley's work is much more recent, within the last 20 years. I have his book Honeybee Democracy. That is probably where I read about drifting at the kilometer distance.

    The Gleanings article was more specific looking at drifting within an apiary and showed that drones drift far more often than workers but that marked workers from a single hive wound up in nearly every hive in an apiary. The apiary had spacing of less than 5 feet between colonies and was not palletized.

    In another interesting bit of trivia, queens were found to preferentially fly 1.5 miles or more to mate. A few of them flew up to 5 miles. Inclement weather shortened the distance with some queens mating above the apiary they flew from when temperatures were below 70 degrees.
    NW Alabama, 50 years, 20 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  20. #2019
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    Default Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    The Gleanings article was more specific looking at drifting within an apiary and showed that drones drift far more often than workers but that marked workers from a single hive wound up in nearly every hive in an apiary. The apiary had spacing of less than 5 feet between colonies and was not palletized.
    Weird. Sounds virtually identical to an accidental experiment i once did, and reported here on Beesource.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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