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squarepeg 2015-? treatment free experience

497K views 2K replies 127 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
the recent arctic blast led to over 72 continuous hours of subfreezing temps at my location in northeast alabama. i realize that's not too drastic when compared to what many of you in the north see but for us that is well below normal for here and it was the first real overwintering challenge for my bees. i made the rounds with the stethoscope today and to my relief i still have decent cluster roar in 18/18 hives.

i had mentioned in other threads that i was considering chronicling my 2015 season here on the forum. the purpose for doing so is because there has been interest expressed for more detailed information regarding the real life successes and failures involved with keeping bees off treatments. so i begin this thread with that expressed intent, primarily for information sharing and educational purposes, with all humility and with no desire to toot my own horn or otherwise. the one selfish objective i have in doing this is the hope that some of you seasoned veterans will chime in with feedback and suggestions.

background: as stated in my tagline i started with bees in the summer of 2010. i started with stock obtained from a supplier who began breeding from feral cut outs in 1996 and has not used treatments the whole time. i still get some queen cells from him from time to time but mostly propagate my own queens via splits and grafts. i run all langstroth equipment, and most hives are a single 10 deep with medium supers. i use 5 frame deeps for nucs. foundation is mostly ritecell, although i have begun adding foundationless frames to the deeps. i generally avoid artificial feeds, but have made exceptions when indicated. the operation is a sideline business (llc) intended to produce supplemental income through honey and nuc sales.

2015 goals: i seek to maximize the profitability of the operation to the extent possible while maintaining the colonies off treatments and avoiding artificial feeds. my specific goals this year involve having every colony 'earning its keep' by providing harvestable honey and/or nucs. i would like to average one nuc sale and 100 lbs of honey sold for every hive that survives winter, and then end up with around 20 established colonies and a handful of nucs going into next winter.

so much for the introductory post. i'll take this opportunity to offer my many thanks to the fine contributors on the forum who have been a huge part of the learning process for me. here's wishing everyone a successful 2015 of beekeeping! :)
 
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#2,029 ·
I've been off the forum for a while but i always enjoyed this thread.

Sorry to hear about this turn of events for you. If anyone deserves to be successful it's you, sp.
You work hard with your bees, keep careful records and you.have always been impeccable in your courtesy and grace dealing with posters here.

Take care, brother and best of luck to you. I hope the bees turn it around next year.
 
#2,042 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience



+1 :thumbsup:
I have always appreciated your calm and thoughtfull writings, which tell me of a person with great wisdom. As someone already said, I´m sure you will have survivors. As long as there is one left, there is hope. Been there, done that...

no more antibiotics for me as my success rate was poor with it and there remains the issue of the bacteria lingering in the honey and beebread, as well as the problem of having a contagious colony around.
That is a good decission. Personally I would not be burning boxes, or frames.
 
#2,030 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

sincere thanks for that arnie, it means a lot to me.

i'm keeping an open mind about going forward with no firm expectations one way or the other.

i am grateful that i was able to pass some of this stock on to a few other folks along the way and that they have propagated more from those...
 
#2,032 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

Square...
You had a very high per hive profit margin before this bad spell. Agriculture can be a gripe sometimes. Even the experts of old had big set backs. You will be retiring someday and if you are like me at all, the future might take little turns one way or the other. When I first retired, I had quite a few little projects that kept me quite busy for the first few years. Now I am a bit more relaxed (though hot spots of activity still happen here and there).

This was a bad set back but I doubt will end your interest in bee keeping and so for the rest, watch for opportunities and go with the flow and see where you end up. I don't say this to be preachy or to discount the real issues that have had to be faced by you. I think you have did great even with the hurtful set backs and I know I have profited from this thread. I am sure the people that promote that giving is better then receiving does not hit home very well when facing what you are going through but do say that you have at least the fact that you have given and that is something.

I am hoping that good times for you again are right around the corner.
Cheers
gww
 
#2,037 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

Mine, bit of a mix to be honest. Some came through weaker than normal, there's also some overly strong ones. Once I would have balanced them out, but now because of the increasing number of pathogens around I no longer balance the hives unless one is below critical mass to make a crop. That's one of my swarm control tools gone, so instead I've just taken off a load of packages from the strong ones which have been sold locally. The main flow where I am should start in 2 or 3 weeks, some hives are very light but I'm trying not to feed sugar, fingers crossed they scrape through till incoming nectar is greater than consumption! :)
 
#2,038 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

understood ot. the nice thing about the smaller ones assuming they make it is that they are less likely to swarm and can make a better crop than a strong one that ends up swarming.

also understood about not moving bees and resources around because of pathogens. sadly i'll be avoiding that as well for the same reason. it will be a hard decision about what to do with resources from winter dead outs, i.e. whether to repurpose them or not.

hope you have a great season!
 
#2,043 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

Juhani
Personally I would not be burning boxes, or frames.
I have to admit that I would only burn for afb and would probably try to bull through everything else but have not lost half of my hives yet. I believe that will come someday and I will put it to the test though.

I also say that since I am not facing it, the above is what I believe now but might be different when facing the pain. I don't think so but am not sure.

I do like your saying, paraphrased by me: "I'm just a hard headed bee keeper that decided to quit treating".
Cheers
gww
 
#2,046 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

juhani, gg, and cam - many thanks for the replies.

the strain of efb that ended up in my apiaries is extremely contagious and highly virulent. it spread very quickly and collapsed what were strong colonies in just a brood cycle or two. shook swarming and/or oxytet didn't do much to faze it.

that the bacteria can persist for long periods of time on the frames even after the colony is gone presents a risk not worth taking. i don't have access to irradiation so destruction by burning is the only thing that really makes sense.
 
#2,048 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

I burned my frames as a precaution, melted comb from plasticell (plastic is quite toxic to burn) and gave the wax to someone making furniture polish just to be sure. Sorry for your losses
 
#2,049 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

What temperature kills it?
Have you thought about hot wax dipping your equipment or a Kiln that can be turned down
I read here somewhere that hot wax dipping was hot enough (250°-350° F) to kill AFB so it may also kill EFB.
 
#2,050 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

What temperature kills it?
Have you thought about hot wax dipping your equipment or a Kiln that can be turned down
I read here somewhere that hot wax dipping was hot enough (250°-350° F) to kill AFB so it may also kill EFB.
It would be wonderful if there were a dependable method (short of radiation) that would dependably kill 100% of the infective bacteria on comb. The hive bodies, top and bottom boards, excluders etc, can be reused after a thorough scraping and scorching with hand held propane torch. The big obstacle to recovery is lack of drawn comb.

I used a lot of partial foundations and crosswired foundationless for quicker drawing and needing plenty of drones for mating splits. I have 5 complete double deep colonies stored for another year before I dare risk repopulating them.

What say SquarePeg; would you risk reusing them? Ever?
 
#2,052 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

I think you should be good to go with those frames as honey supers. If the bacteria survive that degree of sanitation and still infect, it is a mean enemy indeed. I m

I think I will stick with my down sized half a dozen colonies; I wouldn't be up to suffering the kind of loss you have been dealing with.

Best!
 
#2,053 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

it's been awhile since updating the thread, mostly because there hasn't been anything noteworthy to share.

today was once of those warm (mid-sixties) days we see here just before the passing of a strong cold front along with it's associated storms and big drop in temps on the backside.

the three (of 12) remaining colonies at the home yard were bringing mostly a chocolate brown pollen with the occasional bright yellow. i've no clue what plants are producing those.

the outyard has 0 of 9 colonies remaining, the overflow yard has 2 of 3 remaining, and i have a single colonies placed one each at two new locations.

this puts me at a total of 7 survivors at this point (down from a hive count of 28) with all of winter still to go, along with the promise of receiving one of fusion_power's spares.

it is interesting to note that the strongest of the colonies at present is a caught swarm that was given almost 2 deep supers worth of drawn comb that was washed and bleached after being recovered from efb infected hives.

the plan is to see what is left if anything coming out of winter, destroy any colonies and equipment in which efb shows up, and split agressively in an attempt fill up all the empty boxes taking up space in my garage and carport.

i'll likely ramp up the swarm trapping next spring as well. i'd like to end up with 10 - 15 strong colonies (20 would be nice) spread out between 4 - 5 yards to take into next winter. i'm not expecting much of a honey crop for 2020.
 
#2,064 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

it is interesting to note that the strongest of the colonies at present is a caught swarm that was given almost 2 deep supers worth of drawn comb that was washed and bleached after being recovered from efb infected hives.
Interesting indeed.

Back when you said you would treat combs with bleach i was thinking wow, major mistake.

But, seems you have made it work. :)
 
#2,054 ·
Good to hear from you sp. Glad your bees are still trucking along.
This spring due to "excessive" work I missed several swarms out of production colonies, which I thought amounted to my honey crop. I went along with my plan for the year to split a lot. So I had loads of nucs and no production colonies by July. Then during our July / August dearth we had a flow instead. So the earlier splits that were starting to get big made a crop anyway.
So here is to hoping you have some good, healthy colonies to split from in the spring, catch some nice local swarms, and get a surprise honey crop as well. "You never know with bees"
P.S. 60s? We did not get above freezing today and it looks like winter is coming. Some predictions for tomorrow are a foot of snow. Have a good winter everyone!
 
#2,056 ·
Good update, SP. I was glad to see your post. Dealing with the same weather front here.

When you have the time and interest, I would be interested to know what the 'new normal' will look like for you going forward?

I assume based on some previous responses that you may have lower colony numbers per yard but more yards?

Any other structural changes you are contemplating as a result of your experience with EFB?

I am glad you are planning on gearing back up and best of success to you in the rebuilding effort.

I sincerely hope you and your family had a great Thanksgiving.

Russ
 
#2,057 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

many thanks for the replies and continued interest everyone. :)

russ, my plan is to carry on as described above with guarded expectations as to what the outcome will be. the 'new normal' will be determined by whatever success or lack thereof i have at propagating the survivors and obtaining resistant stock via swarms caught from the nearby woods.

time will tell how it all plays out. i'm prepared to accept the outcome either way. it will be 100% no treatments going forward with a strict destruction policy on any foulbrood should it rebloom.
 
#2,062 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

...the 'new normal' will be determined by whatever success or lack thereof i have at propagating the survivors and obtaining resistant stock via swarms caught from the nearby woods.
Thank you for the response, Squarepeg. I am sincerely hoping that this coming year exceeds your expectation, and I will be watching your efforts with great interest.

Thanks again for your reply, and have a great week.

Russ
 
#2,058 ·
Sp, Did you already write about what made you decide not to use treatments for efb if you get reblooms and do you know a post number? I have not seen it in mine yet but assume I will get hit and plan to have a plan. Input from a tf perspective, esp one with experience with the more virulent strains of efb that seem to be becoming the new normal, seem to be lacking in wider lit, besides this post.... Best,
 
#2,059 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

Sp, Did you already write about what made you decide not to use treatments for efb if you get reblooms...
i'm sorry ab, but i can't remember if or where i may have already posted about it. mostly i wasn't impressed with the effectiveness of the oxytet as most of the colonies i treated went on to collapse despite treatment.

that, and after seeing how quickly and easily the infection spread to neighboring hives i've decided that it's not worth the risk of further spreading while waiting for the treatments to kick in.

not to mention that the bacteria can remain viable in the honey and beebread for a long time, leading to the need for subsequent prophylactic treatments which we are supposed to be phasing out.

plus i like being able to tell my honey customers that no chemicals of any kind have been introduced into the hives.

combining oxytet with shook swarming and isolation from other colonies might be an option if it wasn't so much trouble. it's more palatable for me to follow the successful swiss model and just burn everything.
 
#2,060 · (Edited by Moderator)
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

a copy of the letter i sent to the swiss research team today:

"Hello *****,

Here is some background about the bees from Northeast Alabama USA that ***** obtained samples from in early November 2019.

These bees are best described as locally hybridized survivors that appear to be exhibiting tolerance and/or resistance to varroa. This apparent tolerance/resistance manifests itself in anecdotal observations of bee colonies both managed (by beekeepers) and unmanaged (feral wild types in trees and other structures) that are able to thrive year after year despite being untreated for varroa.

Environmental factors that are likely helping to make this possible include:

Geographical Location: This area includes the southern most extent of the Appalachian Mountain Range. Biodiversity here ranks among the greatest on the planet in terms of numbers and quantities of species. This results in high quality forage almost year round. There are still very large tracts of land that are wooded here providing ample nesting opportunities to support a wild type feral population.

Weather: The climate here is described as humid subtropical. We do have distinct seasons and get below freezing at times in the winter, but our average mid-winter temperature is about 40 F. It is rare to go more than 2 or 3 weeks through the winter without an opportunity for a cleansing flight, yet it is cold enough that brood rearing will usually shut down for 1 - 2 months. We also will usually get a shorter break in brood rearing during our summer dearth period.

Lack of Large Commercial Beekeeping Operations: Unlike some of the other states located in the southern United States, the state of Alabama does not allow large commercial migratory beekeeping operations to move their colonies into our borders. This may help to buffer our local population to some degree against genetic dilution and the introduction of novel pathogens and pests. We do receive a large influx of package bees each year that are imported from other states.

My experience with these bees started in 2010. I purchased nucleus colonies from a nearby beekeeper who had been propagating queens and colonies sans treatments since about 1996. Over the years I propagated more colonies from these and was enjoying low winter losses and good honey production. Last year however an epidemic of European Foul Brood found its way into my apiaries and resulted in the loss of all but a handful of my colonies.
Because of this I was not able to provide samples for your study. Instead, the samples ***** collected from here came from ***** and ******. Both of these beekeepers started with splits and/or caught swarms that came from my apiaries. In addition, both beekeepers collected additional swarms and/or removed unmanaged colonies from structures near by.

Here at some details regarding the individual samples that ***** collected:

From ***** (Started beekeeping in 2017)

D2 - Swarm caught in 2018, origin unknown, survived one winter, may have issued a very small swarm in 2019.
D1 - Swarm caught in 2017, parent colony obtained from *****, survived 2 winters so far.
A3 - Swarm caught in 2017 and requeened with Wolf Creek Apiaries queen, survived 2 winters so far.

From ***** (Started beekeeping in 2014)

J-1 Entering 4th winter. Split out of the first cut-out we did as new bee keepers. Been a very good honey producer. 300 bees/ 51 mites

J-3 Entering 2nd winter. Caught swarm from a swampy, wooded area, where we have caught 11 swarms in the past 5 years. Average honey producers. 300 bees/ 41 mites

J-7 Entering 3rd winter, cut out from between floor joists of a split level home. Biggest colony I’ve ever seen, much less caught. Have remained very strong with huge numbers during honey season, and big honey producers. 300 bees/ 27 mites

J-8 Entering 2nd winter. Caught swarm from the same spot as J-3. Big propolis makers and quite fiery when we harvest or spend extra time inside the hive. Also good honey producer. 300 bees/ 18 mites


As you can see the mite counts are relatively high and above what most beekeepers would experience as economic threshold. These mite counts are consistent with what I have found when taking samples over the years. Perhaps this is suggesting more tolerance than resistance? Perhaps it suggests that the vectored viruses are less virulent? Would it be possible for you to run virology studies on these samples? Could it be that the favorable weather and the presence of pollen almost year round is allowing the bees to maintain greater fat body mass, thereby mitigating the issue of mites depleting those fat bodies?

I hope this information is helpful ***** and if there is anything else we can provide please let us know.


Best regards,

*****"
 
#2,061 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

The hardest thing I did was burn 2 colonies that had AFB. I diagnosed it myself but had the state apiary inspector come out and verify that it was AFB. I only had 5 colonies at the time. The two I burned were the best with the most honey on them. That was in 1976 when I was 16 years old. Lesson learned: don't accept a gift of old combs from a friendly beekeeper who prophylactically treated his bees twice a year with tetracycline.

Will be interesting to see the test results.
 
#2,065 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

many thanks ot. :)

we'll have to see what happens over time and with more attempts at repurposing the bleached comb into more hives.

the last time i checked all 7 of 7 colonies that made it to winter after surviving the efb outbreak still have decent cluster roar.

i am expecting to see the first tree pollens of the season coming in any time now. my first inspections/manipulations typically occur mid to late february depending on the weather.
 
#2,067 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

thanks for the question russ,

and even more thanks for the great job you are doing keeping us updated on your thread, as well as thanks for the overall contribution you are making to the forum at large.

i'll perform cut down splits on all colonies that survive and are strong enough to do so. i'll place a half dozen or so swarm traps out as compared to the 2 or 3 that i usually place. if time permits and we have exceptional spring build up i might do some grafting and extra splitting.

dar has a surplus hive left over in langstroth equipment that he has earmarked for me, and a couple other friends who have built up apiaries from nucs obtained from me have offered splits as well.

if i didn't already have all the empty equipment to fill with bees i would probably be happy with 10 - 12 colonies to play with while still on this side of retirement.

the bigger unknown in terms of growing the apiary back is how many colonies may end up with efb reblooming and have to be destroyed?

i'm holding on to my 'goals' rather loosely these days, and have purposed myself to be decidedly content with however things work out. time will tell.
 
#2,071 ·
thanks for the question russ,

...

i'm holding on to my 'goals' rather loosely these days, and have purposed myself to be decidedly content with however things work out. time will tell.
Thank you for your reply, SP.

I ask given that I imagine your general approach, guided by your past experience may prove helpful to many of us should we encounter a similar circumstance down the road.

I do appreciate the ethos of holding loosely to goals and appreciate the sentiments of GG, Fusion and JW.

That said, I am also reminded that Louis Pasteur once opined, 'Chance favors only the prepared mind.'

Best of success to you this year- I fully expect to be reading about your 20+ colonies getting Winter prep'ed 9 months from now.
 
#2,068 ·
Re: squarepeg 2015-2019 treatment free experience

SquarePeg
good plan on "i'm holding on to my 'goals' rather loosely these days, and have purposed myself to be decidedly content with however things work out. time will tell."
When I want what I have I am a lot happer. Only if I desire What I do not have and maybe cannot have do I get down in the dumps.
So One of life secrets has shown itset to you, Desire what you have and then be happy. Who knows One of the swarms in the 3rd, 4th, 5th Decoys you place is a great swarm to get you back on track. One you would never have caught unless you were in this boat today.
All thinks have a reason.
GG
 
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