Running two queen colonies - Page 9
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  1. #161

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    You need a solid division board. And no, bees don't use all outer frames for stores, only if you muddle it up.

    For example, I had a case in our beekeeping club: In summer a guy pulled out all brood combs but two. He thought it'll reduce mites in the hives. He filled the rest of the hive with foundation. Result: queen layed eggs on the old dark combs only (two combs) and all the other fresh combs were full of syrup. What happened: in summer queens (or bees) prefer to lay in old dark comb. By leaving two old combs, the broodnest was restricted to two combs. Fail! No sufficient amount of brood and thus new bees means no winter bees. Hives dead. Although they had tons of winter stores, but lacked bee mass.

    (In Spring it is the opposite: queens prefer to lay in fresh combs. Which is why giving foundation anywhere were you don't want brood is counterproductive.)

    Bottom line: learn about the bees' behavior and act accordingly to get best results. A thriving hive automatically produces the most honey.

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  3. #162
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
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    225

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Bernhard, not sure on your brood nest size with 2 queens. What are your box dimensions and how many frame does each queen have access to? Thanks

  4. #163
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Croatia
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    6

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Hi Bernhard !
    I have 2/3 dept Langstrot 10 frames beehive , cann i have the same method two gueens that you have or 3 queens is needed ?
    Thanks !

  5. #164
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    York County, VA, USA
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    503

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    In thinking it over, I don't see any downside to testing (not full-on adopting) doubled mediums as a box with a frame using standard upper and lower bars and custom sides made for the depth of two mediums plus an appropriate spacer (1/2"?) to make the overall depth that of a medium frame plus a medium box....

    Splitting this as a 10-frame box with a division board and using it for dual colonies as Bernhard outlined sounds interesting....
    And here is my prototype. Better designs are in mind and will be realized Real Soon Now. Sorry for graininess of the photo. It should be better, but I know nothing about cameras, too.

    Michael

    SORRY...forgot this is the commercial forum and not a playground for putterers like me. Will try to remember. Don't know how to / Can't unlink photo so leaving post intact.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  6. #165
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    I am currently running 5 Modified dadnt hives that came through winter as double nucs. I have a partition in center and 5 frames on each side. I am thinking about placing my queen excluder on top and supper up from there. What's your thoughts on that idea?

  7. #166
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    York County, VA, USA
    Posts
    503

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Not yet having done these things, I will say that it is consistent with what has been written above. I would like to do this. I will likely build my first square brood chamber soon. I am favorably impressed with the development of bees on the extra-deep frames I put into a two-stacked-mediums rectangular box, and it's time to go to the next step.

    Michael
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  8. #167
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Perhaps convert some to ‘normal’ modified Dadant, and keep some as 5 frame wide & compare. That’ll improve all of our knowledge about those approaches.

  9. #168
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    I do have and some "normal" MDH that I've had for the last 3 years as well as a horizontal hive I made for the jumbo frames that came through winter with 3 hives in it.

  10. #169
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Hamlin, South Dakota,USA
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Bernhard,
    You had a link for carricell requeening but it dosnt work now.
    Do you have a new link for it would like to try it.
    Looking for the queens really slows things down.
    Adding a cell in the fall would really help things allong thanks.

  11. #170
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Northern Lower Michigan, USA
    Posts
    903

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    @Roland: I don't see a significant better buildup, too, but for me it makes good sense to use the weaker queens in those hives to get a better honey production per box.

    Wolfram Peschetz, the author of the book I linked, worked out a plan to control varroa. Which is another aspect to try 2 queen hives. Basicly he cuts drone frames for two times in early Spring, and only in early Spring - to cut back the initial varroa infestation. And he removes the complete brood two times a year. One time in May, another time in July. You cannot do this in single queen hives, since bee population decreases too much, so you loose a lot of honey. Even one brood removal, too early in the year (in May), shrinks the population, so you loose 20-50 % of the honey crop per year. But with a multiple-queen hive you can do this without loosing any honey at all. Because those hives buildup massive populations. (Not by more brood, but I reckon' the bees get older, much older in those hives. Don't know if that is true or how it works. From observation I don't think those massive amounts of bees can be made by brood alone, there must be a longer lifespan, too.)

    When taking the complete brood (with adhering bees, without the queens), he combines 50 frames of brood (Langstroth, shallows) into a new hive, sets those hives into another distant apiary with a nectar flow, and makes shook swarms every 8 days from those until the hives are emptied out/faded, harvesting some honey from those brood towers in the end, too. Shook swarms go into nucs with a ripe queen cell for building up young colonies. He treats only the swarms for varroa, one time when the swarms are made and another time in Autumn. That's it. No winter treatment necessary, no treatment of the production hives, too. Production hives and nucs have to be in different locations, though, to make it work.

    By moving up some of the brood two times (within the hive! So no loss of workforce), and by the first complete brood removal, all swarm tendencies are cut back completely. I have seen that myself. The broodboxes are filled up with capped brood, are boiling with bees, incredible amounts of bees, but they don't swarm. Really interesting. Peschetz didn't do any other swarm control. I didn't, too, and had no swarms. (Marked queens.) Experimentally I did not move up brood, those hives swarmed.

    It may look fiddly and very time consuming, but it is not so bad at all. You get way more combs drawn, you produce way more bees than in a single-queen hives, you make more new hives and you get a decent honey crop with less to no work to control swarming. Plus it helps controlling varroa, and you treat the mites outside the hives and no brood present. Which helps against resistance. So initially you invest more time, but get away with less work and more income.

    I am slowly increasing the number of hives with two queens. Right now I combine the weakest third of all my hives into 2 queen hives, combing the third of all hives that came out of winter a bit weaker. The boxes, that are freed by combining, become supers with drawn comb for the strongest hives. I needed some time to understand, why Peschetz did what he did. Especially some of the details. And I start liking it, because of the results. Note: I use an 8 frame hive and 2 queens. Peschetz used a 10 frame hive and 3 queens per hive.
    Bernhard old thread I know, was this book ever published in English? do you have the full name of the book I have googled and not come up with much.
    Thanks
    GG

  12. #171
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
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    225

    Default

    Time to sponsor a translation if not already done.... 😉
    Bernhard, do you still use these methods now and how many of what sized frame do your queens have access to in your 8 frame boxes (ie 1 box split in half so each queen only has 4 frames? 2 boxes? Are they comparable in size to langstroth deeps?) Thanks

  13. #172

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    I use the Brother Adam hive, which has 12 Dadant frames. Divided by a divider board (bee tight) into two sections. Each section gets four combs of brood maximum. Never more than 4 frames Dadant, which is similar to Langstroth deeps. So each section four combs, follower board, empty space, divider board, empty space, follower board, four brood combs.

    I still use two queen hives with great success. A lot of beekeepers here adopted the method and also have great success.

    If you try 2 queen hives for the first time, take two good splits with two good queens and set them together in one 2 queen hive. I formerly recommended the use of weaker queens, which works fine if you are experienced with two queen hives. For the start, use stronger units.


    https://youtu.be/7PYhyPsjAyg

    First days of May and about 60 kg of honey. About 9 frames with 7.000 capped cells = 60,000 bees hatching/emerging in the next ten days...

  14. #173

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Book will be translated and published soon. It think mid 2020.

  15. #174
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    7,854

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    In my experience, the queens will not coexist in brood chambers separated only by an excluder. You only have one queen relatively shortly. My variation that works but is way too much work is to move the queen and a couple frames of brood out of the strong wintered double, replace removed frames and put on a queen excluder topped by two supers, add an excluder and put the split in its own hive body on top with its own entrance. The emergency queens produced below are high quality and the queen above lays furiously with a nurse bee force steadily augmented as they become unemployed below.

  16. #175
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    4,192

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    Vance, try two excluders, spaced so that the two queens can not get to each other. I tried that setup once with side by side 5 over 5 deeps. They did expand faster in the spring, but not worth the trouble inspecting. (I believe it is used in the Ukraine)

    We use your method (almost) when we loose a queen, but put eggs downstairs and upstairs, the upstairs being above the supers. The code name is "Tower of Power" when both queens take. The top gets a new home when we loose patience lifting it.

    Crazy Roland

  17. #176
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    225

    Default

    Thanks Bernard. That is helpful. Because your frames are about twice the size of Peschetz' do you move only one frame of capped brood above the queen excluder from each brood nest every 2-3 weeks? Also, twice a year (May and July) he pulls all brood. Do you leave all open brood or pull that as well? Do you have a summer dearth? Is the May pull towards the end of swarm season and the July pull just before summer dearth?

  18. #177

    Default Re: Running two queen colonies

    I pull one or two frames each section. Every ten days from the end of May on. I don't pull all brood at once. I do have a summer dearth but I do feed at this time and also I plant a lot of flowering fields that compensate the dearth. The hot summers we experienced here the last two years caused trouble because there was no water in the soil anymore.

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