Super DFM - Honeybees - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post

    The big 'Now with Probiotics' flash makes me wonder.
    Makes for a great sales pitch, doen't it... lol who knows
    ehoffma2, thanks for your contribution to this topic. The information you shared is what we are all screaming for.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  3. #82
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Grozzie2 post #79 Very well said.
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  4. #83
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Keith,

    I think you wrote you use probiotics... Would you share the reasoning behind them in your supplement?
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
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  5. #84
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Didn't Keith mention his reasoning already in another thread, if I recall correctly....

  6. #85
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    Keith,

    I think you wrote you use probiotics... Would you share the reasoning behind them in your supplement?
    No, I never said I use probiotics , I did say however we use a micro flora builder in our sub.
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  7. #86
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    I did say however we use a micro flora builder in our sub.
    Would you share the reasoning behind using a micro flora builder in your sub?

  8. #87
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Didn't Keith mention his reasoning already in another thread, if I recall correctly....
    Can someone tell me the difference between probiotics and microflora? and why there is a huge hush hush around it?
    If it's in there, then there will be a good reason for it being there... right?
    ehoffma2 makes no bones about it, information coming from Stong Microbial, but that cant be trusted right, because its in house study??? At least it's something to work on!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  9. #88
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Ole Chef would be proud.
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  10. #89
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Your last statement, there is an answer, but your train of thoughts & mine are miles apart.
    Cheers to that!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  11. #90
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Can someone tell me the difference between probiotics and microflora? and why there is a huge hush hush around it?
    If it's in there, then there will be a good reason for it being there... right?
    I'll give it a shot...

    Probiotics and microflora...they are both microorganisms. Bacteria. Other terms such as microbiota are also used, sometimes interchangeably.

    Probiotics, as the name implies is...pro & bio..or pro life. They were bunched under this name because they are considered beneficial. They break down certain substrates (food stuffs for them) and by doing so, they "help" with lets say digestion, or further digestion in this case.
    So, all probiotics are microorganisms, but not all microorganisms are probiotics.

    Going back to your cattle...a lot of the microrganisms present in your cow's digestive tracts are pathogenic in nature, yet in a fine equilibrium they just don't get to create a clinical picture( ie. diarrhea, bloat).

  12. #91
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    apis touched on it well. Microflora boosters help establish, maintain, or achieve ideal conditions in the host organism for it's natural microflora to survive (the beneficial ones). I don't think this necessarily means live cultures, enzymes etc... It could be something as simple as maintaining a certain PH where beneficial organisms survive better so they out compete less desirable ones.

    Pro-biotics kind of take it to the next level, actually innoculating, using enzymes, or introducing new organisms which might be more efficient at breaking down whatever the host organism is ingesting.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by apis maximus View Post
    Would you share the reasoning behind using a micro flora builder in your sub?
    A.M., I am a beekeeper with thousands of hives, But, I'm also a pollen sub maker, been doing it for about 30 years, first generation. So when I set out to make sub, it's not about telling everybody in a full page ad that I have the most protein pollen sub of anybody, but rather I try to look at the most cost/benefit for the pound of product fed to the hive. Nutra Bee sub has around 20% protein & 10% fats. Now to your question, how can we make sure that all or most of all that 30% is utilize. A micro Flora builder promotes a healthy digestive track, a healthy digestive track absorbs more nutrients. So, as a sub producer that sells sub, I want the beekeeper, that buys my sub to absorb as much nutrients as possible for the money spent.

    Most of our immune system is in our gut.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 12-19-2014 at 05:03 PM. Reason: adding for Ian :)
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  14. #93
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    So does Probiotics pertain to this conversation at all? Is Strong Microbial introducing bacteria into the bees digestive system to provide a better environment to promote or "boosting" micro flora in the bees gut?

    so Keith, your not even adding bacteria into your mix ...
    Last edited by Ian; 12-19-2014 at 05:15 PM. Reason: wanting Keith to answer the question
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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  15. #94
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    It could be something as simple as maintaining a certain PH where beneficial organisms survive better so they out compete less desirable ones.
    Yes indeed!
    It is done a lot in a lot of applications.
    Like I said before, anything that exist in nature can become food substrate for something else. I am talking bacteria here, as in doing the eating and breaking down whatever the substrate is. Heck, there is bacteria that eats oil(as in crude, petroleum) for lunch when one provides the right conditions.

    One can manipulate the pH, which in turn will "favor" a particular bacteria and "disfavor" another. There are applications in the chicken industry/turkey industry/beef industry/hog industry, that take advantage of this. Breaking up chicken litter, or bedding used in industrial housing of livestock uses many times low pH solutions to "encourage" certain types of bacteria to multiply and grow, that in turn, will break down whatever one need to have broken down.
    Yes, one can add extra bacterial populations into the mix...or even enzymes...or just tilt the pH in favor of those already existing bacteria, that can thrive in this condition, and they'll do the rest.

    Back to the bee subs...there is a reason why all the subs out there have a low pH. Bee bread has a lower pH than fresh pollen...an acidic environment pretty much rules in a healthy, thriving hive.
    Last edited by apis maximus; 12-19-2014 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #95
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Thanks for the reply Keith.

  17. #96
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Yup thanks. But not the patty question. How long with the bacterial and yeast live after mixed into the patty?
    Ok, Sorry I missed the patty question. - here is my best answer

    I'm all about data data data. I have no interest in anecdotal evidence nor beekeeper opinion.

    I want the data to talk, that is why we ran a blind study and did not tell Strong Microbials Inc.

    what we sent them until after the analysis. That said, I have No data on microbes in wet patties.

    Per our technical discussions on wet vs dry, I suggest to you that it is Not long. In a wet condition

    the microbes will Not be in a sleeping state. If they are exposed to oxygen, they will not do well.

    Most or many of the bacteria and yeast need an anaerobic environment. They need to be in an

    environment that does not have oxygen. Think hydrogen per oxide H2O2. it kills lots of stuff.

    One of the active agents in Super DFM honeybee is designed to consume Oxygen. Intellectual Property.

    Ok, there you have an answer on Wet patties - do not do it.
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  18. #97
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    I could not agree more, Well said. we need micro flora builders for healthy bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    A.M., I am a beekeeper with thousands of hives, But, I'm also a pollen sub maker, been doing it for about 30 years, first generation. So when I set out to make sub, it's not about telling everybody in a full page ad that I have the most protein pollen sub of anybody, but rather I try to look at the most cost/benefit for the pound of product fed to the hive. Nutra Bee sub has around 20% protein & 10% fats. Now to your question, how can we make sure that all or most of all that 30% is utilize. A micro Flora builder promotes a healthy digestive track, a healthy digestive track absorbs more nutrients. So, as a sub producer that sells sub, I want the beekeeper, that buys my sub to absorb as much nutrients as possible for the money spent.

    Most of our immune system is in our gut.
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  19. #98
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    So, as a sub producer that sells sub, I want the beekeeper, that buys my sub to absorb as much nutrients as possible for the money spent.
    I understand this. With probiotics it seems implied that they "predigest" nutrients as in the case of silage. That is beneficial when talking about forage diets with a cellulose base. However formulated grain diets have a much higher digestibility. Combine that with non-ruminant animals and why would you want to feed the microbes a valuable feed? Again, just thinking out loud...
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
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  20. #99
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    So why the difference in opinion here? ehoffma2 says no to patty usage and Keith says yes.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
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  21. #100
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    It is my understanding that Mann Lake Ltd will have Super DFM Honeybee in their catalog in February 2015. That said, If you buy animal probiotics and place it in bee feed, is it going to work ? I suggest to you that you need to work with a real microbiologist.

    http://www.strongmicrobials.com/about#us


    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    To me, that suggests you are on top of the marketing curve. Every day we see new adverts on TV in this respect. A month ago, it was the binge of A&W adds promoting the concept of 'no steroids or hormones in our beef'. The month before that, it was Presidents Choice saying the same about the pork. And the latest one that really caught my attention, a recent tv advert from Presidents Choice. As of _now_, no artificial flavours, or colors allowed in any product with the Presidents Choice label on it. It's a very well done forceful add the way they present it, 'As of today, NONE, we will let our food speak for itself with color and flavour'.

    I think this speaks volumes for what is happening in the industry as a whole, we wouldn't see nation wide marketing campaigns along those lines, if they didn't fare extremely well in test markets. The add I saw numerous times, is forceful, and a veiled challenge to all other brand names to 'beat that' when competeing for the trendy consumer's purchase dollar.

    But, that strays from the original topic, so, to drag this back on topic, we are talking about bee feed. On this same vein, I have a question. Looking at various supplements out there, another jumps out at me, for both the adds, and availability reasons (Sorry Kieth, cant seem to buy your stuff here, so, gotta look at what we can buy). BeePro from Mann Lake has all the 'right stuff' according to the adds, but, they also have UltraBee, and the catalog page for that one has the big blue star saying 'Now with Probiotics', and it runs about $15 more for the 50lb bag. So this leads to my dumb question.

    The big 'Now with Probiotics' flash makes me wonder. Is this tested amongst bee hives for efficacy, or, is it 'market tested' to see if an extra $15 in premium can be had per bag, selling to a less price sensative, and more buzzword sensative market ? Reading the fine print farther, it also has the 'no soy' bullet item, which hit's another big buzzword for a lot of folks, it implies, but doesn't state, less gmo.

    Inquiring minds would like to know....
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

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