Super DFM - Honeybees - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Heck no, feel free to contribute like that anytime!

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by apis maximus View Post
    You are right...Heater bees, just like all bees in the hive need more than just carbohydrates. But for heating purposes, they only need and use honey.
    Can a heater bee be a skinny bee? I would say yes, as long as she has honey available as fuel. Heater bees are present in a normal hive all the time, in every season. They warm up the brood nest not only in the winter. Carbohydrates are the fuel for warming.

    Remember the concept of temporal polyethism in honey bees...look it up.
    Have you ever noticed some cold days in the spring and even in the summer, when bees don't fly, but just sit in the hive? If needed, and the temperature drop requires more heat generation, to maintain the nest at 35 C, even the adult foragers can and do join in the process of warming up the nest.

    The adult foragers have lost all or most of the vitellogenin by the time they become foragers. But, that does not mean they cannot become heater bees if and as needed. Skinny or not...Well, skinnier than they were when they were nurse bees.

    Vitellogenin plays many critical functions indeed and it plays into a lot of feed back loops that take place in a "super organism" that a bee colony is.
    Nurse bees are loaded with it, and here I quote from Randy Oliver's site:

    "The quality of the jelly is dependent upon the vitellogenin levels of those nurses. Even just a few days of rain results in an almost total loss of pollen stores, forcing the nurse bees to dig into their vitellogenin reserves. When protein levels drop, nurse bees neglect young larvae, and preferentially feed those close to being capped. When protein levels drop lower, nurses cannibalize eggs and middle aged larvae. The protein in this cannibalized brood is recycled back into jelly. Nurses will also perform early capping of larvae resulting in low body weight bees emerging later."

    Role in the bee "immunity" ? Absolutely yes.
    But here is an interesting twist that again points to that concept of temporal polyethism...
    From Randy again:

    "What’s happening is that the honeybee has figured out ways to keep most of the precious protein stores within the hive, and since vitellogenin is necessary for immune function (Amdam 2005a), the colony delegates the risky task of foraging to the oldest bees, who have depleted their vitellogenin levels. Indeed, if older bees are forced to revert to nurse behavior, and build up their protein reserves, their immune level also increases again!"


    Onto the "fat" bees of winter...
    Back to Randy:

    "When broodrearing is curtailed in fall, the emerging workers tank up on pollen, and since they have no brood to feed, they store all that good food in their bodies, thus preparing themselves for a long life through the winter. These well-nourished, long-lived bees have been called “fat” bees (Sommerville 2005; Mussen 2007). Fat bees are chock-full of vitellogenin. Understanding the concept of fat bees is key to colony health, successful wintering, spring buildup, and honey production."



    One more thing in that "cross". Vitellogenin is classed as a “glycolipoprotein,” meaning that is has properties of sugar (glyco, 2%), fat (lipo, 7%), and protein (91%)



    The Buzz about Bees...Great book indeed. But you know what? In the whole book, the word vitellogenin does not appear once. Not in the book I have. Nor does bee bread or fat bodies for that matter.
    But, the book, amongst other things, does a great job describing heater bees and how they keep that nest of theirs warm and toasty using honey for fuel. See page 216.( Sweet Kisses for Hot Bees).

    Not to be off topic in the end...I think DFM as a concept, is great and I think soon, it will become something very common in the beekeping vocabulary.

    I apologize if this was too long.

    Yes, fat body creation is Key to the success of the hive

    Below is some of the evidence of the blind study data

    Super DFM HoneyBee – Blind Study – 2014

    Goal: investigate impact of direct-fed microbial product, Super DFM Honeybee, on honeybee gut
    microflora.

    Summary: Supplementation with direct-fed microbial product, Super DFM Honeybee, significantly
    increases Lactobacillus and Bacillus populations in honeybee gut. Terramycin treatment decreases
    Lactobacillus populations in honeybee gut.
    Objective 1. Lactobacillus are a natural constituent of commensal microflora of honeybees, Apis
    mellifera. However, pathological and drug-induced changes in microflora lead to a decrease in natural
    prevalence of the Lactobacillus. Supplementation with direct-fed microbial product, Super DFM
    Honeybee, is expected to result in significant increase in Lactobacillus population in honeybee gut. Gut
    Lactobacillus and other commensal bacterial play a role in inhibiting honeybee pathogens and therefore
    play a critical role in honeybee health.
    Result. We are able to demonstrate a significant increase in Lactobacillus population in the guts of
    honeybees fed Super DFM Honeybee. Compared to untreated honeybee control group, honeybees fed
    SuperDFM showed 9-fold increase in Lactobacillus population in the gut (p-value = 0.03).

    URL link to Blind Study Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_6edG6-Y6E

    URL link to Blind Study PDF file - http://strongmicrobials.weebly.com/u...lind_study.pdf
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    what do the initials 'dfm' stand for?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Direct Fed Microbials. DFM

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    This is probably a piece of information I missed, but I'll ask anyway.

    How much DFM is mixed into the sugar dusting treatment? And you mentioned adding it to dry feed in an open feeding situation. How do you guage how much DFM goes into the open feeder? Open feeding is extremely variable.

    I notice in some advertisements that MannLake is also adding Probiotics to their patty mix. ehoffma2, according to what the microbiologist from Strong Microbials are telling you, that bacteria will not be viable by the time the bees ingest it?
    Can you elaborate on this point?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by apis maximus View Post
    Direct Fed Microbials. DFM
    thanks am.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This is probably a piece of information I missed, but I'll ask anyway.

    How much DFM is mixed into the sugar dusting treatment? And you mentioned adding it to dry feed in an open feeding situation. How do you guage how much DFM goes into the open feeder? Open feeding is extremely variable.

    I notice in some advertisements that MannLake is also adding Probiotics to their patty mix. ehoffma2, according to what the microbiologist from Strong Microbials are telling you, that bacteria will not be viable by the time the bees ingest it?
    Can you elaborate on this point?
    Reply to question - how much per hive ?

    The Scientists listed 10 grams. I determined that is close to "one table spoon".

    you mix one table spoon with one cup of powder sugar and place in the brood area on the top bars.

    For the open feeder Question, I used one cup of Super DFM Honeybee to three pounds of Mega Bee.

    We had about fifty (50) hives hitting the open Mega Bee feeders.

    Question 2 - reply How long ?

    Viable time is what ? At room temperature, in the hive, out of sun light and water, bacteria and yeast will stay viable (sleeping) dormant for months.

    That is why Strong Microbials Inc. ships the Super DFM honeybee product in a Mylar vapor proof bag. If you keep the Super DFM Honeybee in the bag, at room temperature it will keep for two (2) years.
    If you place the bag in cold storage, the expiration date is Five (5) years.

    Hope this answers the Questions
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by ehoffma2 View Post

    Hope this answers the Questions
    Yup thanks. But not the patty question. How long with the bacterial and yeast live after mixed into the patty?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Not to offend anyone, but why on earth would the maker of this product run trials with a beekeeper with 50 hives rather than a larger beekeeper that is digging in bees on a daily basis??? If I were trying to create a product to get large sales in this industry I would want it in the hands of commercial guys for a variety of reasons. At least a larger guy could state the difference between treated and untreated colonies. If you lose 20 percent of hives treated with this product then I won't get too excited but maybe before you were losing 50 percent.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    babybee has an important point. bees are so variable that a 50 hive study is too small a sample to be statisticaly significant. early in this thread the term snake oil came up, this could well be the case.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    check post #3 for # of hives in trials or studies.

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by mathesonequip View Post
    babybee has an important point. bees are so variable that a 50 hive study is too small a sample to be statisticaly significant.
    It would be, if you are measuring the results in a 'by guess or by golly' methodology, ie, counting frames of brood etc. But my reading here seems to suggest the results are being measured by a lab analysis for specifc gut contents of the bees, in a side by side fashion. N=50 is more than adaquate to get a statistically significant result if you are measuring one variable precisely.

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    I just realized we are on the commercial forum. A place where bees are, by in large, considered livestock. I am not commercial and I hope I did offend any of you that are. Not here to throw stones or to criticize.
    However, we are talking about a very complex topic that involves honey bees and our passion for this endeavor we call beekeeping. So I will plow along, because it is a fascinating topic. Bee nutrition that is.

    Ian, you mention the parallel you draw with your cattle operation. By the way, them Charolais cattle you have are just beautiful. Clearly, you take great care of them. Beautiful country too around there for your bees and your cattle. You mention adding microbials/cultures to enhance your silaging process. Although you do agree that silage as a substrate comes with its microflora that will get the lactic fermentation going, you are looking for better ways to do things and you have adopted the adding of inoculants in your silage/haylage to speed up the fermentation and to improve the resulting silage. You're after improving that feed efficiency, right? Can't blame you, feed costs have just about tripled in the last 5-7 years...not only in Canada but in US also. Your feed is more than likely your largest variable expense...good thing for these high cattle prices.

    Bear with me here...we'll get back to bees shortly.

    So, are you using any growth promotants in your cattle?
    In no particular order, I am referring to 1. Antimicrobials (ionophores are the ones used by the beef cattle industry), 2. Hormonal implants (estrogen and/or testosterone) and 3. Beta-agonists.

    They are tools, legally available in the cattle industry, and believe me they are used. I am not saying that because I googled it...but because at one point or another in this chain, I am involved.

    I'll just refocus on the antimicrobials from here. Notice, I am not using the word antibiotics...All antibiotics are antimicrobials but not all the antimicrobials are antibiotics. For example, bleach and alcohol are antimicrobials but they are not antibiotics. Tetracycline, Tylosin(Tylan), Lyncomix are antibiotics.

    We are talking about DFM (Direct Fed Microbials) right? We are talking under the hypothesis that these are the good guys we need, because, a lot of the existent good guys were wiped out or diminished by different insults. Or, they were not eliminated, but more of them will get the "eficiency" up and going.

    I am not saying you, Ian,are using these tools in your cattle operation. But if I was you, and if I was to guess, I would say you are. And so, if you are, than you might as well add those inoculants to enhance those beneficial bacterial populations. You better.

    Ionophores, the antimicrobials used by the beef cattle operations are presented to the farmer somewhere along these lines:

    "Ionophores improve feed efficiency by acting on the rumen microbes. Most rumen microbes convert the complex fiber and starch in forage and grain into simple molecules that can be absorbed into the bloodstream to provide energy and protein to the animal. Some rumen bacteria (known as methanogens) convert the dietary fiber and starch into methane gas. Methane contains energy, but it cannot be absorbed by the animal, so it is belched out and wasted. Ionophores improve feed efficiency and weight gain by selectively inhibiting methanogenic bacteria, and allow the beneficial rumen bacteria to make more feed energy available to the animal."

    Think for a moment on that concept of "selectively inhibiting"...Cattle are marvelous creatures. Their digestive system can do miracles. For real. But its the work of their digestive microbiota. The unseen things...The bugs inside...So, we have manipulated livestock diets since we knew how to raise animals. We have manipulated and influenced these bacterial populations for a long time. With the right enzymes, additives, bacterial inoculants, formulations, we can get these cattle to eat chicken ****...I mean litter... or turkey litter or other materials that one would never dream of. For every substrate that exists in nature, there is a microbe that will find it as food.

    Back to the bees now. Back to the DFM.
    Is the raw pollen, corbicular pollen brought into the hives the same as bee bread? Nutritionally speaking...
    Well depends on what you use a measuring stick. In 1978, Shimanuki and Herbert at the Beltville lab set out a trial to look at this issue. Here is the full article:
    http://www.apidologie.org/articles/a...1_ART0003.html

    In their trial by using area of brood produced, they said they could not see significant differences between the pollen fed and bee bread fed bees. In their words: "There was no difference in the nutritive value of bee bread and pollen when based on the number of bees reared to the sealed stage. Bees fed either the pollen or the bee bread patties reared 7,195.50 + 243.75 C 2M and 7,046.00 + 152.93 2M larvae,respectively, to the capped stage."

    But now, that was in 1978. How many papers can you find from that time that talk about fungicides, pesticides, antibiotics, varoacides, etc., and their interaction with the bee bread microbiota? Yeah, we knew about the microbiota present in the bee bread, or in the bee's guts. Martha Gillian was beautifully describing these things in 1979. More and more work on this issues have popped out lately. The awareness that something is going on with these beneficial bugs is picking up. But in the mean time, some folks are saying, hey we kind of know what these bugs are, we can culture them, we can add them, they are not going to hurt. Not only we know these "beneficials" so we can culture most of them, but we know what enzymes they can produce. So, for a good measure we can add those too. We are doing it with humans all the time. Get on antibiotic (antimicrobial) treatment and you better get some yogurt...right? Or probiotics...heck, get on probiotics regardless. Go into any pharmacy and go to the aisles carrying probiotics. Do you think they carry them on the shelf for decorations? No, they sell the crap out of them.

    Going to the presentation posted by ehoffma2, on this thread, one of the papers that shows up on page 21 of the presentation in a table format, is:Cremonez, T.M., De Jong, D., Bitondi, M.M. 1998. Quantification of hemolymph proteins as a fast method for testing protein diets for honey bees. J. Econ. Entomol. 91: 1284-1289.

    Look at the level of protein and vitellogenin % found in the bee hemolymph of bees fed bee bread vs. raw pollen. Almost 2 times as much protein and 3 times as much vitellogenin for the bees that had bee bread vs. fresh pollen. And what's even more interesting...look at the the bees that had no protein available in their diets.

    I'm gonna stop for now...way toooo long

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Ok so the study is on 1000 plus hives!! Umm so maybe 20 guys with around 50 hives each. Most of those guys have to buy bees every year to own any bees at all. I am joking I hope! If a scientist tests a higher level of good bacteria in the intestinal tract that's great, but it matters not if the hive is dead by spring.

  16. #75
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    Wink Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    appis.. last time I checked bees and cattle were a lot different types of animals.

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Apis and Ian bring up some interesting points with regard to ruminants and silage. Innoculants used in silage are primarily used as "preservatives" to acidify the feed which inhibits breakdown by competing molds and fungi. Cattle are ruminants, which means they are unable to directly break down cellulose plant materials, but the microbes in their stomachs can. This then makes the nutrients available to the cow. Bees do contain microbes in their digestive tracts, just like the rest of us, but do not appear to be "ruminants". Freshly collected pollen comes in contact with the microbes in the colony and begins a type of fermentation process which helps remove the covering on pollen grains and acidify the pollen which inhibits breakdown by competing molds and fungi.

    Thinking out loud... Are all fungicides bad? They are used more than most of us realize in our daily food supply. They help protect our food from molds and yeasts. Which is worse food poisoning by "bad" bacteria, or a little acidified food from antimicrobials?

    ehoffma2, I think this is a good concept, but delivery and stability is key. It needs to work into an existing system, ie syrup or patties and then what does that mean in terms of antibiotic and fumagillin use. Could it be used as a "natural" preservative for patties?
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Wow this forum has some thinkers mixed into the bunch!

    What do I bring to the table in regards to this conversation? I'm the down right average speaking farmer looking for solutions. So I will ask the questions before I hand over the cheque book. There is a lot that is being tip toed around in this conversation. Never the less, as more attention is directed this way by beekeepers more of this is going to become common knowledge. As that has happened in the livestock industry.

    Our cattle farm used no steroid or growth hormone. We breed our stock so that those treatments are not needed and thus the reason our business is thriving. Not to say our producers don't though.
    We are ontop of the latest vaccination programs with our stock and we will treat sick stock as needed.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by mathesonequip View Post
    appis.. last time I checked bees and cattle were a lot different types of animals.
    Thanks for stating the obvious.

    But since this is Ian's topic, and for good reason he brought in this discussion, his cattle nutrition as a parallel, I personally thought to be relevant to the discussion at hand regarding Direct Fed Microbials.

    Yes, bees are not ruminants. But bees have a microbiota that synergistically works in their gut and also, bees do inoculate the pollen that they end up storing as bee bread with these bacteria. There is a fine balance at work in these processes. It's not me discovering this or nothing like that...but the work of people in this field is out there for anyone interested, or curious enough to look.
    If you follow the thoughts of JSL aka Dr. Latshaw, he subscribes to the thought that those LAB bacteria, the fungi and their end products, are there just to store and preserve the nutrients. I am sure they do.

    LAB fermentation has been used to store and preserve food long time...way before Cheetos and Nachos came along.

    Yet, if you follow and look in the literature, a lot of enhancement takes place while these bacteria do their work. We are talking about nutrient availability and nutrient value.

    Here is a relatively recent paper that has some nice insights on the issue:
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032962

    An interesting point for those not interested in reading the whole thing:

    "Honey bees are one of the few insects known to have genes that
    encode cellulases [32], but their persistent difficulty with pollen
    digestion is evidenced by the substantial proportion of pollen grains that are not fully broken down in the guts of workers [33].
    Furthermore, most pollen sources do not provide a complete
    complement of the nutrients that honey bees require or may
    contain only trace amounts of some essential amino acids [34–
    36], which means that bees must collect a mix of pollen types
    when they can.
    To alleviate some of these nutritional challenges, honey bees
    typically do not consume raw pollen. Instead, workers process
    pollen that they collect by packing it into honeycomb, adding
    glandular secretions to it, and sealing it with a drop of honey [37].
    Pollen processed in this way is matured into bee bread after several
    weeks, presumably due to the activity of microorganisms that are
    found in bee bread, but are absent in unprocessed pollen [38]. Bee
    bread is chemically different from pollen: it has a higher vitamin
    content [39], lower amounts of complex polysaccharides, a shift in
    amino acid profile [40], and lower pH [41,42]. It is routinely
    suggested that these changes in nutritional composition are a result
    of the metabolic activity of the microflora that is present in stored
    pollen..."


    Not trying to convince you, nor especially needing you to be convinced. Do you see? Conviction is where you stop learning...and start preaching or burning unbelievers. Refining the search with others is much more fun. And useful. My suggestion: remain unconvinced and never stop learning.

    Peace.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Our cattle farm used no steroid or growth hormone.
    To me, that suggests you are on top of the marketing curve. Every day we see new adverts on TV in this respect. A month ago, it was the binge of A&W adds promoting the concept of 'no steroids or hormones in our beef'. The month before that, it was Presidents Choice saying the same about the pork. And the latest one that really caught my attention, a recent tv advert from Presidents Choice. As of _now_, no artificial flavours, or colors allowed in any product with the Presidents Choice label on it. It's a very well done forceful add the way they present it, 'As of today, NONE, we will let our food speak for itself with color and flavour'.

    I think this speaks volumes for what is happening in the industry as a whole, we wouldn't see nation wide marketing campaigns along those lines, if they didn't fare extremely well in test markets. The add I saw numerous times, is forceful, and a veiled challenge to all other brand names to 'beat that' when competeing for the trendy consumer's purchase dollar.

    But, that strays from the original topic, so, to drag this back on topic, we are talking about bee feed. On this same vein, I have a question. Looking at various supplements out there, another jumps out at me, for both the adds, and availability reasons (Sorry Kieth, cant seem to buy your stuff here, so, gotta look at what we can buy). BeePro from Mann Lake has all the 'right stuff' according to the adds, but, they also have UltraBee, and the catalog page for that one has the big blue star saying 'Now with Probiotics', and it runs about $15 more for the 50lb bag. So this leads to my dumb question.

    The big 'Now with Probiotics' flash makes me wonder. Is this tested amongst bee hives for efficacy, or, is it 'market tested' to see if an extra $15 in premium can be had per bag, selling to a less price sensative, and more buzzword sensative market ? Reading the fine print farther, it also has the 'no soy' bullet item, which hit's another big buzzword for a lot of folks, it implies, but doesn't state, less gmo.

    Inquiring minds would like to know....

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Apis,

    Perhaps I didn't state my thoughts clearly. I think the primary benefit of pollen fermentation is food preservation. I agree the composition changes too, but what I am not clear on is what came first, and which is more beneficial to the bees? If the change in nutrient composition a result of necessity or simply a side effect. More theoretical than absolute I guess.

    Grozzie2,

    On the feedstuffs open market, most bulk ingredients are priced by their protein content and availability. Then there are premiums for such items as non-GMO, organic, probiotics, etc. Generally there is a higher cost of production for such items, but your question spot on. What is the real cost of production vs the perceived value by the customer? I tend to look to what the larger producers employ as they crunch every last number, but there is a market for most things, you just have to find it.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

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