Super DFM - Honeybees - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Keith, when is "noop" considered debating things right? I know you think " we've all been watching "I Love Lucy" while you done all the work" your quote. Let's have a real debate :-)
    Last edited by davidsbees; 12-17-2014 at 09:38 AM.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Enzymes are the end result yeast and bacterial action along with lowering the PH. Proteins are like a zipper and all the teeth are individual amino acids, enzymes are the unzippers freeing the amino acids. There enzymes for fats, sugars, cellulose and many other things. I use about a half dozen of them. Don't have them in front of me.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Interesting David. I have not heard of anyone talk about supplementing enzymes to the feed mix. Maybe everyone already has been and its already provided in readily avaliable bee feeds? Are these enzymes that the bees are not already providing? I'm assuming the assumption is that by adding the enzymes the feed mix will be properly or more adequately digested. Do you see response from this supplement? and if so how are you measuring it?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    I have not heard of any one else adding enzymes but it is very common in animal feed just google it. The best measure is brood but is a double edge sword with brood comes mites. Well the crew just came back to the shop to muddy :-)
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by davidsbees View Post
    The best measure is brood but is a double edge sword with brood comes mites.
    Have you done any in op trials to see if you can notice response?

    You mentioned adding Pro Biotics as snake oil, how can you ensure enzyme supplement is no different?

    We add an inoculant to our silage pile, and there are studdies showing how it increases feed efficiency with digestion and so on. This measurement is extremely hard to measure as the pile of variable cloud results. We are not adding the inoculant to improve feed efficiency. $8-15,000 investment of the innoculant has to show clear payback before we use it for that purpose. We use the innoculant to help preserve summer/fall fed piles. The reduction of waste during summer feeding shows us the payback.

    SOO...is adding these supplements more so to satisfy the beekeeper that strives to help make a better feed? a the supplement used in the bee feed typically isnt going to bankrupt the farm. Im interested in the measure of efficacy.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Probiotics are not necessarily snake oil they work well in the lactic acid fermentation process as in putting up silage or making bee bread. Half the dairyman in my area let silage ferment naturally the other half add inoculatent. Protein supplement is not pollen so the nutrition people I've talked with thought enzymes would be a better fit to make a long story short. Going by other animal study's I feel the cost (penny's a pound) is made up in the added nutritional value.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    David where do you get your enzymes? I looked around but didn't find any small suppliers.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    I was getting it out of Canada, Canadian Bio but now the feedmill I use has their own supplier.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Do you dabble some of it to the mix or do you have a formula? or a certain target your trying to achieve?

    I have bought into the Pro biotics theory aswell. When we start talking about nosema and fungicides and and and, its not hard to buy into the theory that ensuring the proper gut bugs in the bees will help make the bees healthier.
    ...though I have not fed any or done any comparisons...

    I plan on incorporating it into my bee feeding program. Your enzyme supplement sounds interesting.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Like all ingredients there is a optimal level or it does not do any good I let the nutritionist crunch the numbers I just tell him what I want to achieve. I think dry feeding the probiotic may be more beneficial then in a pattie.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by davidsbees View Post
    Keith, when is "noop" considered debating things right? I know you think " we've all been watching "I Love Lucy" while you done all the work"
    Wow.

    David, I used the term "Noop" to describe my opionions on DFM product to Ian, never used the stuff nor have I ever heard good or bad about it. How do you debate something you know nothing about.

    Hey, go see Santa Claus & cheer up.
    Last edited by Keith Jarrett; 12-17-2014 at 05:38 PM. Reason: adding
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    That's what I thought:-)
    Last edited by davidsbees; 12-17-2014 at 06:34 PM.
    David
    beebotanical.com 40 years-4000 colonies-treatment eo's

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by davidsbees View Post
    I was getting it out of Canada, Canadian Bio but now the feedmill I use has their own supplier.
    Which one were you using from Canadian Bio? Thanks.

  15. #34
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    New Albany, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    In my opinion, the mircoflora found in bee bread act more as a preservative mechanism by increasing the acidity of stored pollen. Good or bad it helps to preserve stored nutrients.

    Pollen patties are basically processed food for the bees. Beekeepers add their own preservatives, such as essential oils, and acidifiers.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Ehoffma2, are you part of the trial or involved with the company ?
    Reply - Yes and Yes. - we were part of the trial and yes I have been a technical support contact for the company.

    I do not work for the company, nor am I an employee. Yes, I am involved with Strong Microbials Inc.

    I have used bacteria in our hives and others for over two years. Every one I work with and sell Nucs to, I tell them

    to use bacteria in the hives. I have seen a difference in our hives Winter Survival. Michigan %20 loss last year.

    It was our Michigan Bees that were part of the blind Study.

    They are now running data trials on samples of pollen and they will run more samples of bees next year.

    The negative control group hives were missing Key microbes.

    The Super DFM Honey Bee product has over thirteen active agents. It's not just bacteria.

    Since September 2014, our team in Michigan has been coaching the Strong Microbial Inc. Microbiologists.

    At this point in time I would best describe my relationship with the company as an agent.

    They are looking for distributors. email - [email protected] for further information.

    I hope this answers your questions.
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    E2 Thanks for the forthright answer. Interested in clarifying with more info??

    A lot of folks tout products here and then try to hide in the "anonymity" of the web. Keep us posted!!!!!!!!!!!! Better bees are the goal of 99.999999% of us who live here!!!

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey-4-All View Post
    Just for the record! Would you like to confirm or deny the rumor that any of the fingerprints on the envelope containing the flyer and sales "prospectus" touting this product which I happen to have received a few weeks back might at all be directly related to anyone at hoffman2..............??????
    What I can do is repeat what I placed in the other reply today. I have been a technical support
    person for the microbiologists in Milwaukee WI. since September. I let them sample our Michigan bees.
    I have been sending them pollen and other items to test. I will send them more frozen bees next year.
    I will collaborate with them more next year. They are not beekeepers, they are scientist.
    20 plus years with the bees and counting - Michigan - 50 hives - Buckfast Queens - Pollination and Nucs.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    David, I notice DFM-honeybees also incorporates enzymes into its treatment.

    ehoffma2, the treatment is directed as a dusting twice a year (as I understand, please correct me if thats wrong). Have they done any work incorporating this treatment into a patty?

    Also why is the only measure of efficacy being winter survival. An increase of colony winter survival is our main objective but its a terrible measure of efficacy. To many variable involved in this equation (many being beekeeper variables) to make this a tangible measurement. By using winter survival as the measure of efficacy it makes the product sound like snake oil, as "better winter survival" is merely a buzz word or catch phrasing. And maybe that's what they want as thats all they have right now, with substantial test results in the future...?

    As a beekeeper using a product like this, I would be using it to achieve a certain objective. My objective would be to create a healthier digestive tract to help fight off Nosema, to aid in the digestion and utilization of bee food which would help create a healthier broodnest.
    These objectives are measurable. Nosema counts between treated and non treated colonies is extremely easy. And if the product works there should be a measurable difference between the two groups, right? Examining the brood nest and comparing the brood condition would be difficult to gauge but if conditions improve in the treated colonies to the point where the study finds winter losses are noticeably decreasing, they should be able to find differences in the broodnest and in the bee's fat reserves themselves.

    I often wonder if the difference beekeepers find with fall feeding colonies is exactly the fact that they are paying attention to the hives disease needs and actually providing the bees with food as compared not handling disease and leaving the bees to mal nourished...
    HOw much of these variable is exactly that and nothing to do with adding ProBiotics and enzymes and yeasts and and and...

    Just thinking out loud again. This forum is a great place for that.
    What do you think?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    on my farm we have available pollen from April right though September. Supplemental feeding has not been a focus. But I think the issue we are starting to face up here is the amount of nutrition bees are actually able to extract from all this available pollen. A substantial part of this diet has been treated with fungicide and that is what the bees are using to build the winter populations. This is the point of time prairie beekeepers, who make a living on the yellow country side, need to focus our attention.

    I know there are MB beekeepes who satellite this site, who just read that and said, yup yup yup... how?
    How? by putting more focus on the nest during the middle of the honey flow.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Super DFM - Honeybees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Supplemental feeding has not been a focus. But I think the issue we are starting to face up here is the amount of nutrition bees are actually able to extract from all this available pollen. A substantial part of this diet has been treated with fungicide and that is what the bees are using to build the winter populations.
    Ian,

    I think you've got something "cooking" here.

    This issue will eventually get more attention, but it will be a long, arduous road to sort things out. Even if we do not enter the fungicides into the equation, we already know that different pollens have different nutritional values. Also, same pollens in the same areas have slightly different chemical compositions from season to season or from one year to the next. Slight or marked difference in chemical composition might not translate much in different nutritional values, but we do not know for sure.
    Then, we have the dynamic of raw pollen being transformed into bee bread. The microflora present, absent or altered in the raw pollen...the bee gut microbiota present or absent or altered for whatever reason. We are barely scratching the surface on this one.

    Throw in the external factors...such as fungicides, and things get really complicated.

    So, how does one find a practical, consistent way of sorting things out when it comes to actual nutritional value? At the apiary level that is. Not only at the commercial level, but also at the sideliner and hobby level. You big boys, most of you anyways, have realized that supplementing has to take place. Not a 100% consensus on what is the best.

    Both ends of the spectrum are easy...On one end, healthy colonies that thrive on abundant, diverse pollen sources available in a certain geographic area or microclimate, and on the other end, colonies that for whatever reason starve for pollen.
    The in between hive populations are the ones that are not so easy.
    And this is the space where you see all kinds of recipes being tried out, promoted or put down, adjusted, "improved", or what have you.

    Dr. Latshaw just started another thread on pollen subs...hope more good questions will come out.

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