Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Deknow brings up an interesting point. When I teach instrumental insemination to beekeepers, I caution them that II is a tool. It is a tool that can cause harm to a population or enhance it. Too much control over mating in a small population quickly leads to inbreeding and reduced performance. II allows beekeepers to perform single drone inseminations, but I do not see a useful application of this in the broader scheme of things for long term production and survival.
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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    I'm not sure if the spermatheca remains receptive after initial mating or the first few weeks of the queens life.

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Queens can be re-inseminated. Harbo and perhaps others looked at this.
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  5. #44
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by apis maximus View Post
    However, beekeeping practices designed to reduce labor, increase efficiency and provide convenience in scheduling, often provide suboptimal conditions for queen development and sperm storage in the spermatheca. The reported lower performance levels of IIQs can probably be attributed to such factors. With the ability to control mating, IIQs generally have been selected for superior genotypes, which may mask the possible disadvantages of instrumental insemination concerning their performance. The unfounded reputation for poor performance of IIQs has been difficult to dispel, although the scientific community has repeatedly demonstrated their equal and sometimes higher performance compared to NMQs."
    With the quote I presented I just meant to emphasized if the agenda of queens II breeder overlaps a strict protocol, the results are not so good, this according to Dr . Susan own, and maybee this is one of the reasons for low reputation of II queens.

    Full quote that you present underlines further this point. Researchers the strictly comply with the protocol get in rule queens of good quality. As far I had understand in USA, Canada, like here in Portugal beekeepers usually do not buy their queens to researchers, or am I wrong?

    In the same year in which the article of Dr . Susan Cobey was published (2007) was published this article: Effects of Insemination Quantity on Honey Bee Queen Physiology, Freddie-Jeanne Richard, David R. Tarpy, Christina M. Grozinger. In the abstract we can read: "Here, we demonstrate for the first time that insemination quantity significantly affects mandibular gland chemical profiles, queen-worker interactions, and brain gene expression. Further research will be necessary to elucidate the mechanistic bases for these effects: insemination volume, sperm and seminal protein quantity, and genetic diversity of the sperm may all be important factors contributing to this profound change in honey bee queen physiology, queen behavior, and social interactions in the colony."

    What this abstract is saying, as well as others, is that II is not an area of closed investigation by the very beautiful work of Dr. Susan Cobey . IMO , much of the research points in the direction that there is still much to analyze and much to learn. It is an open field , and it is too early to draw definitive conclusions and in one sense that artificial II is heaven on earth.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Kind of awesome...I've mentioned that 2007 Apimondia article by Dr. Cobey probably 8 times before on Beesource, and this is the first time that there is any evidence that anyone even read read it, let alone understood it. Mostly everyone gets the ideas, too. Dr. Latshaw is even in on the thread! I'm impressed, and pleased.

    Fantastic to hear that Dr. John Harbo found that queens can, indeed, be re-inseminated. Is why they don't go out and mate again in nature is a puzzle yet to be completed? (Now I plan to try it for certain, on one of my better "retiring" queens, and with distinctly different sperm, to try further determine male-passed traits from female-passed traits.)

    Last I heard, Dr. Cobey had a dual assignment, early spring at U.C. Davis, later at WSU. She also offers private classes for 1 or 2 people at a time at her home on Whidbey Island, WA, in the summer.

    Dr. Cobey's New World Carniolan bees could serve as a study group for long-term effects of I.I. on a population of bees. I'll will try to ask her how many generations of the original stocks were back-crossed (or what ever other techniques used???) how many times, leading to this highly-successful bloodline of bees. If I get an answer, I'll do my best to report it back here. Feel free to remind me in a PM.

    Another idea surfaces from Eduardo's point: there may need to be a standard protocol set for the entire I.I. process, measurements of it's various aspects, as well as a system of enumerating which revision of the protocol, as it will evolve, corresponds to a study being published. Good show, Eduardo!

    Could you please post a link to the Richard/Tarpy /Grozinger article regarding effects of insemination volume on queen physiology? I'd really appreciate that. Thank you.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 12-02-2014 at 02:53 PM.

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Now I'm wondering if swarm queens remate during swarming at any detectable rate...

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    ... I have a disagreement with a statement that Dean makes at the 5:35 time mark. He stated that "Queens and workers are genetically identical". I have a problem with that statement. The workers are made up of half of the queen's 32 genes and all of their particular father drone's 16 genes, giving each worker a total of 32 genes, and not every worker has the same drone father, and no workers have the same drone father as what their queen mother had (although they do all have the same drone grandfather). Therefore, I think that the Queen is not genetically identical to her worker daughters...
    I think he meant a queen is genetically identical to her worker (and queen) SUPER-SISTERS, not her worker daughters, nor her worker "half-sisters". Still, the concept of the definition of "identical" or "congruent" seems almost absurd in nature. I'm sure it can happen, but upon closer investigation, it almost never does.

    Like religious kooks who describe themselves as Creationists, whom do not yet know that the ONLY thing we really know is that we KNOW nothing, do not know that all people are agnostics whether thy like it or not (forgetting that we must first convene on what assumptions are being made), we are mostly all genetic mutants, even "identical twins", who are most likely individuals that share a rather high degree of similarities rather than being truly identical.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 12-02-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    If I had to choose, I'd rather have frozed drone semen from my best older breeder queens than keep the original queens producing with new semen.

    I know the frozen semen is tricky to work with, but if you were quick and deliberate before your II queen was superceded, you'd get your new live, fresh source of specific line of virgins to continue your work.
    You could keep your original frozen semen around for years for occasional influence back to your lines.

    Those are your Heirloom seeds
    Last edited by Lauri; 12-02-2014 at 02:56 PM.
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  10. #49
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    I'll will try to ask her how many generations of the original stocks were back-crossed (or what ever other techniques used???) how many times, leading to this highly-successful bloodline of bees. If I get an answer, I'll do my best to report it back here. Feel free to remind me in a PM.
    Thank you kilo. Have no doubt that I will remember you if you forget

    Could you please post a link to the Richard/Tarpy /Grozinger article regarding effects of insemination volume on queen physiology? I'd really appreciate that. Thank you.
    Just because you are a kind person : http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0000980

    If you notice any rudeness here or there if I did not take it personally . My English is rude but I am more than my English.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    I'm afraid my Portugese is a bit worse than rude.. but it is a good thing that beekeepers with scientific minds get along well and discuss the topic rather than burning cars and attacking each other with hammers! I'd far rather read and learn here that read the latest news from Ferguson, Missouri on Yahoo! I don't know what is worse, the misbehavior or the "reporting" (pronounced "race baiting")?

    Good to have a buddy in Portugal! And thank you for the link.

    Good idea, Lauri! Heirloom is a great concept that probably also needs a protocol. I suppose that Brother Adam's Buckfast bees of yesteryear would be more like the "Buckfast" bees of today, at least the ones here in the USA, had there been an heirloom stock kept continuously (fortunately, his Dartmoor mating yard is back in business, and the Karl Kehrle Society keeps his methods alive). Better for baseline control groups for multi-year studies, too. I hear they have made recent leaps in cryogenic storage of bee germplasm, too. Things are indeed looking up. Big Thank You.
    Last edited by kilocharlie; 12-02-2014 at 03:29 PM.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Excuse me coming into this late, but when your talking about re-inseminations are you talking a day or two, or a year or two, and where was the link that this is referencing... Thanks for the help,

    Also, are Sue's NWC's treated or able to remain untreated for varroa?

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    I hear they have made recent leaps in cryogenic storage of bee germplasm, too.
    Got a reference? Last I heard (2013) was that they were successful in using stored semen to inseminate queens, but the resulting supercedure rates were very high.
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  14. #53
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Brandy - We were talking about re-inseminating older queens, and I need to study up on Dr. John Harbo's work before I say too much more. I KNOW that I DON'T KNOW about this topic yet, and Dr. Latshaw says that Dr. Harbo worked on that, so we'll see what he says

    Astro, - I think I saw it mentioned in a scientific paper quite recent, like in the last 3 or 4 months. If I spot it again, I'll make an effort to drag this thread out of the past and post it here. My apologies for not having it at the tip of my brain. Up until now, germplasm has been viable at room temperature for 2 weeks, refrigerated for almost a year. I think it was a recent award mentioning a female researcher for her work advancing cryogenic methods with drone germplasm, perhaps one of the speakers at the California State Beekeepers' Association meeting. I'll check.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Astrobee - my mistake. It was a brief about a speaker for the recent CSBA convention, Megan Taylor, a PhD candidate at Washington State University. The mention was that her masters dissertation at Universtiy of Guelph involved improved methods of cryostorage for bee germplasm, no big breakthroughs, but I will seek out her info and report back.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    > Is why they don't go out and mate again in nature is a puzzle yet to be completed?

    Some people believe they do. I have always assumed they don't (as has everyone else) but I don't have any definitive proof of that.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > Is why they don't go out and mate again in nature is a puzzle yet to be completed?

    Some people believe they do. I have always assumed they don't (as has everyone else) but I don't have any definitive proof of that.
    Those queens that live 4-5 years; do the bees supersede her because of her health or because she runs out of sperm? I thought the latter.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    When a queen is in a booming hive and laying a lot, her life is much shorter than if she is in a nuc and not laying much. Jay Smith claims to have had a queen he was breeding from that was eight years old. His methods were to confine a queen mother to a small area to lay and I would say that's the reason for the long life. I think they run out of sperm.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Queen Alice
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Don't forget the number if eggs are not infinite.

    Trying to keep a prolific queen in a smallish colony is difficult to do. That hive ends up being a brood frame and feed donor to a lot of other nucs, unless there is another way of doing it. I have done simlulated swarms with many of my older queens that worked great. Still, their colony was difficult to keep small enough to access her on a regular basis easily by late summer.
    But those breeder queens are always of fresh, soft, clean comb. Plus no mite treatments needed if you do it right & you have good groomers. (One or two frames of only open brood-the rest of the frames new-undrawn) The only way I know how to give a colony a short brood break with an established laying queen.
    I've got many queens going into their third winter I've handled that way. Still they end up in double or triple deeps.

    They'll draw out a & fill a single deep in about a week if you have a good number of foragers. Then add a second deep (with a feeder if there is no flow.)
    The colony below has a 2012 queen and 3 or 4 year old colony. Off the old frames and onto new. A good chance to refinish the old hive box's too.





    That four deep hive is the one I changed out last March. Almost lost it here.



    Heres a photo of that queen



    Here she is when first mated, May of 2012



    One of the few Buckskin colored Carnie hybrids I use. Or at least plan to use. I tend to favor the darks so I have several queens like this I've just kept around & never quite gotten to.


    Heres how that freshened hive looked this fall. I've actually never grafted from this queen because when I've gone to do it, the hives gotten too big again.

    Last edited by Lauri; 12-10-2014 at 08:20 AM.
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  20. #59
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > Is why they don't go out and mate again in nature is a puzzle yet to be completed?

    Some people believe they do. I have always assumed they don't (as has everyone else) but I don't have any definitive proof of that.
    Queen excluders prior to insemination, plus clipped wings during the insemination pretty much rules out any chance of natural mating.
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  21. #60
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    Default Re: Honeybee Genetics and Breeding Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by SRatcliff View Post
    Those queens that live 4-5 years; do the bees supersede her because of her health or because she runs out of sperm? I thought the latter.
    "The surviving virgin queen will fly out on a sunny, warm day to a "drone congregation area" where she will mate with 12-15 drones. If the weather holds, she may return to the drone congregation area for several days until she is fully mated. Mating occurs in flight. The young queen stores up to 6 million sperm from multiple drones in her spermatheca. She will selectively release sperm for the remaining 2–7 years of her life.[3]" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee . I've read something similar in a scientific study that passed through my hands a few days ago that also confirms these figures. If the find will reference it here.

    Several experts refer to a queen by year lays about 250,000 eggs. At the end of four years lay about 1 million eggs. Having about 6 million sperm should live about 24 years if their life expectancy was mainly determined by this factor. I do not think is to disregard the possibility of their mandibular pheromone decrease.

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