Foundation-less frames: my experience - Page 3
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  1. #41

    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    I have seen plenty of mites under fat open larvae.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by green2btree View Post
    If I am understanding you correctly, the part that you found unacceptable was too much drone comb?JC
    To which you replied "Yes"

    so after all this....dont use foundationless and your problem is solved
    3 hives/2 nucs

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    "so after all this....dont use foundationless and your problem is solved"

    Which is exactly the point the OP has made.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeDatc View Post
    what are you looking at? there is maybe one drone cell at the top left and the rest is flat worker caps.
    My point was that in established foundationless beehive, my bees do not produce too many drones. I never saw the whole frame full of cupped drone cells. I normally have some drone cells at periphery of the worker brood.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cerezha; 11-15-2014 at 01:17 AM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #45
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    cerezha - Your interpretation of the numbers is completely wrong. ...
    I respectfully disagree, but it is my opinion you may think differently.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    I see your point. Tolerance of this figures is so wide is hard to make any conclusions or of the numbers...

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by jcolon View Post
    I see your point. Tolerance of this figures is so wide is hard to make any conclusions or of the numbers...
    yes, the error is too large, that number itself have no meaning.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by jcolon View Post
    I see your point. Tolerance of this figures is so wide is hard to make any conclusions or of the numbers...
    So in your opinion when Dr. Seeley states "This is, ...23.6 kg average difference in weight gain (mainly honey production) that was found between colonies with and without drone comb." The effect of drone comb on a honey bee colony’s production of honey*Thomas D. SEELEY, Department of Neurobiology and Behaviour, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA. From Apidologie 33 (2002) 75–86
    is taking a risky conclusion? On the other hand when scientists peer from Apidologie reviewed and accepted this article for publication make a rough job, because they published the risky conclusions of Dr. Selley?

    It's a big jump for me that I am not prepared to give and that I believe will never come to be.

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    "The data has some error in it, therefore, the opposite conclusion is correct."

    That is the flaw in the reasoning.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    In early Spring, I inserted foundationless frames into the center of the brood nest to reduce crowding without splitting the brood nest as a method of swarm control. The bees turned almost all of it into drone cells. Right when I want to stimulate a build-up of workers, I am inducing them to make drones.

    The hives I did this to had a huge number of drones by the end of Spring. The drone population was close to 50% of the hive population. The hives had so many drones it was impossible for me to find the queen. Just too many big bees running around for my beginner's eye.

    I like the idea of letting the bees determine cell size for themselves by using foundationless, but the method I used above produced too many drones and I won't do it again. Not saying this would happen to everyone who did what I did, but this is what happened to me.
    I have been foundationless for 15 years and have never seen a hive with 50% drones. I suggest you had a bad queen.

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    My point was that in established foundationless beehive, my bees do not produce too many drones. I never saw the whole frame full of cupped drone cells. I normally have some drone cells at periphery of the worker brood.
    I was responding to the person who said that it was drone comb or something talking about your picture.. not your post about it. Your frames are always great to look at.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    I've posted these photos before, but the same thread topic keeps coming up. I apologize to those that are probably sick of seeing them.

    After the overwintered hives taper down their early spring flush of drones, they just backfill the large cells once those drones have hatched. I've not found what I would call an excessive amount of drone rearing even with these frames. And with large empty cells near the brood, they don't backfill the smaller cells near as much during the flow. With a half sheet of foundation in the center, I get worker sized cell built, reliably, every time. They still get to build foundationless to customize the frames to meet their needs.

    Just my method.







    Below: frame was in the third deep near the center. No excluder.
    Last edited by Lauri; 11-19-2014 at 04:42 PM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    I have been foundationless for 15 years and have never seen a hive with 50% drones. I suggest you had a bad queen.
    Of course it is always possible the queen was bad. However, the workers were building drone comb, not the queen was laying drone in worker comb.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Lauri, do you take those photos with an iPhone? You have the clearest photos I've seen.

    I started using foundationless frames this past summer. In one hive they made 2 full frames of drone brood. I put one in the freezer, but when I went back for the other one later, I couldn't find it and didn't want to root all thru the hive again, so I just left it. But I was surprised at the amount of drone brood, and when late summer came, that hive was the only one with a big pile of dead drones out front.

    But it's not a big enough sample to draw any conclusions, and I had a lot of other things going on in the hives, like a swarm and new splits. Not this hive with the 2 frames of drone brood tho, that was a new Russian package from early June. (packages were late arriving last spring!)

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Here's my video of the Do's and Don'ts of foundationless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SP...DATt5CampP4RtA

    If I could get a good plastic foundation that was small cell I'd consider Lauri's idea of a piece of foundation in the middle and open sides for them to fill as they wish.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    I just wanted to add a bit more clarity to the statistical argument between our fellow bee keepers. In short, we were arguing whether or not population with large mean and small standart deviation could belong to a population with smaller mean and large standard deviation simply because there is an overlap. Even more succinctly does mean a - mean b = 0.

    Well, there are standard test that look at exactly that problem. Honey weight is a continuous variable, so hopefully no one objects to a normal distribution. The test I chose takes into account both means, both variances and both population sizes. In this case that was easy, since control and experiment groups were the same size, each =10.

    The difference in means was 23.3 kg. The differences in square root of (variance a / population a + variance b / population b) = (16^2 / 10 + 14.8^2 / 10) = 6.8923.

    When we take 23.3 / 6.89 ratio, the z score we get is 3.38. Translating that score into probability yields .0004 result, which is way way way below the p=.05 alpha that is usually applied in these test.

    WIth this finding we have to reject the null hypothesis that drone colonies produce the same amount of honey as no drone colonies.

    Well, we could also say that .0004 or 4/10000 is a significant enough result where due to natural variation these two populations would be essentially the same, but that is rather a difficult alpha to get people to accept.

  18. #57
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by NewbeeInNH View Post
    Lauri, do you take those photos with an iPhone? You have the clearest photos I've seen.

    I started using foundationless frames this past summer. In one hive they made 2 full frames of drone brood. I put one in the freezer, but when I went back for the other one later, I couldn't find it and didn't want to root all thru the hive again, so I just left it. But I was surprised at the amount of drone brood, and when late summer came, that hive was the only one with a big pile of dead drones out front.

    But it's not a big enough sample to draw any conclusions, and I had a lot of other things going on in the hives, like a swarm and new splits. Not this hive with the 2 frames of drone brood tho, that was a new Russian package from early June. (packages were late arriving last spring!)

    All foundationless... or adding foundationless into a hive of mostly foundation? because foundation creates a vacuum of drone laying spots and when they get it they go nuts.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Last year I rehearsed in about 20 hives put only a small strip about 2 cm wax on top of the frames. My intention was that the bees build the comb with the size that they wanted . I had put these frames in the hive interchangeably with other already pulled . The frames was placed in February, at a time when queens have a good laying and often are prepared to swarm.

    I found the following :
    1 ) pulling the wax faster than the blade into frames with full wax ;
    2 ) The Queen began to lay eggs almost simultaneously with the pull wax ;
    3 ) pulled in too many cases drone cells .

    If point 1 ) and 2 ) I quite liked the point 3 ) led me to stop the experiment .

    I wonder if point 3 ) is normal in these conditions? What did I do wrong ? What should be done to that point 3 ) had not happened?
    I I think the way I started this treath shows as I'm open-minded about the use of frames without wax. My experience has given the results already described by me . Stopped the experiment for the reasons that I have already described. Really wish it had been otherwise , but it was what it was and the reality is imposed on our desires . I would love to continue and even extend this practice to all my hives . Take them all for frames without wax for two big reasons : 1 ) bees can choose the size of the working- cell ; 2 ) avoid waxes that were probably contaminated by the chemical miticides .

    However some of the intervenors wanted hurriedly put me on one side of the barricade . I've noticed in these few days of attendance in this forum that the issue with vs. no wax divides much of this community.

    Some of the answers and hurried and inattentive comments made ​​to my request for help took me some research on the net about this subject. It was during this search that I found the scientific article by Dr. Seeley . Even the crystal data presented here were difficult to digest for some ( or have already been ? )

    The haul these this challenge : find on the net or elsewhere a scientific article that refutes the data and conclusions of Dr. Seeley . A scientific paper requires , in my humble opinion, some conditions must be fulfilled : definition of dependent variables vs. independent variables ; the experimental group vs. the control group ; adequate statistical analysis of the data and an acceptable level of significance according to the current standards in this type of study ; conclusions adjusted in the light of the data and statistics presented .

    I will be very grateful ! I hope you could find something. I still open minded and I'm not on either side of the barricade !

    Not looking for your personal opinions and your personal experiences . I know these already . Thank you for your understanding .

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    After looking over the Seeley article (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/fil...l-00891902.pdf), I find his conclusions pretty convincing. Others stated that the range he gives for the hive weight gain overlaps, and it does but he uses a very, very low P value to make up his range.

    To quote his article: "colonies with drone comb, 25.2 16.0 kg; colonies without drone comb, 48.8 14.8kg(P< 0.0001)"
    Using a P value that low to create a range is very unusual, and creates a very broad range. Most scientific articles either use a value of 0.01 or 0.05, which is considered statistically significant. I would like to see the raw data to look it over and do some statistical tests.
    -----------------------
    The real test is the P-values that show the differences between data sets. Seeley notes that in two of the three years the differences in the mean weight gain were statistically significant: 1998:P< 0.01; 1999:P< 0.005; 2000:P= 0.09. He does not give a pooled absolute P value for all three years combined, however.

    What these P values show, is that in 1998 there was only a 1% chance that the differences in weight gain were due to random chance alone and was not related to the drone comb difference. In 1999 that chance was 0.5%, and in 2000 it was 9%. I would like to know what the P value for the three years combined is, but I don't have the raw data and I don't know how to combine P values.
    -----------------------
    Again, it would be nice to see some raw data, but the results are fairly conclusive. I know it will change the way I think about drone comb.

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Foundation-less frames: my experience

    datsdajoke,
    the plus/minus value is one standard deviation in the data, this range is intrinsic to the data being reported, not selected by the researcher. The p-value is the probability of the data comparison being reported arising from chance. In the case of the Seeley paper the p is the result of the Student's T-test. The p is not conditioned by the researcher, but is a function of the data. The research does select (in advance) the level of significance he will use for hypothesis testing.

    Anyone who knows the mean, the standard deviation, and the n-number can repeat the same statistical comparison that Seeley did, which is why it is standard deviation is rigourously reported in academic papers.

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