Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Do you have any insight on bees that are dormant in the winter and their energy needs?
    Oh sure, I've starved plenty of those as well. My experience with wintering bees is pretty extensive. I like to tell people I have a lot of experience in how NOT to do things, now if I can just figure out how you are supposed to do things. Listen Daniel, I dont post this out of spite or to show you up, I post this because there are lots of "newbees" out there that read these posts. BEES DONT LIVE 6 WEEKS WITHOUT FEED!!!!! They do not do it here or there, they do not do it anywhere (or anytime). If you dont believe me then shake some bees out onto dry comb and see how they fare.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Dave, the bees going into the cells headfirst is how they normally winter, the cluster condenses into a tight area between the combs and in them. Dead headfirst is surely a sign of starvation, but they don't go headfirst into the cells just to die, I don't know if that is what you were trying to say.

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    There are perhaps thousands of references on overwintering bees out there. Here is one, from the Resources section of Beesource itself. It's actual science, backed up with citations, graphs, and "twenty-seven 8x10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence" that bees must have proper stores of honey in order to survive.

    https://www.beesource.com/resources/u...-bee-colonies/
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgolden View Post
    The metabolic curve in attached must take into account increased consumption due to flying. More realistic. I would paste a picture if I knew how!

    http://www.google.ca/url?url=http://...VPbtgypcOIAIyg

    Here's the graph:

    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    BEES DONT LIVE 6 WEEKS WITHOUT FEED!!!!! They do not do it here or there, they do not do it anywhere (or anytime).
    ha ha ha, I laughed out loud at the lunch room table... nobody else got it, lol
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Burrup View Post
    I do not believe that the wraps have much effect during the coldest times, but I see the greatest benefit from the wraps in the late winter and early spring when the hives are brooding up.
    The best is when the yard is nicely covered with snow, just showing the tops for ventilation and flight access. Snug like a bug in the rug.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    The bees ventilate rather well when the snow is three feet deepover the colonies and they are in their ice cave about the size of a 55 gallon drum. I used to winter in 24 hives back to back and the inside of the cave was brown when it caved in an you could see. Amazing how much snow is melted by those bees only heating the cluster. I need to put a thermometer inside my wrapped hives and get an idea of the facts instead of the liturgy.

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    .

    I would think it may be better to insulate all sides of a hive except the southerly side. leave that exposed to the sun so the hive gains from that exposure. Covering in black paper would help in that gain.
    Didn't work well at all for me. On a sunny but 32F day, the interior gets warm and bees go on one way cleansing flights! Lot of dead bees on top of the snow.

    I use 2 inch on sides and back and 1/2 on front under black building paper.
    Zone 3b. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    How did some of these apparently physically unsupportable ideas take root and live so long? Could it be confusion with moisture management issues which often in conflict with heat retention?
    Frank

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    Could it be confusion with moisture management issues which often in conflict with heat retention?
    remove the moisture with the heat
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    A related question I am curious about. What is the smallest cluster that can reliably be overwintered in my region? In the winter that wasn't (2012) I had a cluster of bees about the size of a teacup that survived, and then in the spring when boosted by a frame of emerging brood grew big enough to contribute to the crop.
    I can overwinter 5 over 5 frame nucs. I am curious about single 5 frame nucs and am entering winter with a few of those, and then I wonder if a 3 over 3 would be doable? Providing a beekeeper has bees to spare these are interesting things to experiment with, especially if you want to stay off the package treadmill.

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    remove the moisture with the heat
    I agree; that is what I do, up through the top via the shavings quilt and a very small top entrance. But how or why did the other methods get entrenched?
    Frank

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    The bees ventilate rather well when the snow is three feet deepover the colonies and they are in their ice cave about the size of a 55 gallon drum. I used to winter in 24 hives back to back and the inside of the cave was brown when it caved in an you could see. Amazing how much snow is melted by those bees only heating the cluster. I need to put a thermometer inside my wrapped hives and get an idea of the facts instead of the liturgy.
    We used to see the same thing when wintering bees in central Minnesota, we packed them side by side in twos with the old "buffalo board" sheeting for a lid topped by a layer of straw, then a wrap with the summer lids placed on top of them. We would dig them out in late February to take inventory and feed some dry sugar as needed. The clusters would almost always move towards the wall next to the neighboring hive. We had some yards where we had to use a probe to try to find those brown "caverns" though there would usually be some sort of little chimney hole if you looked closely. They had their own little micro climate under the snow.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    But how or why did the other methods get entrenched?
    I am not quite following you. Please elaborate.

    I think most of the variations on prepping for winter is simply beekeepers recognizing all the factors, and controlling them which best suits their environment. Here in Manitoba, we get cold, cold and no break from cold. It suits indoor wintering perfectly, probably best suited for indoor wintering. Guys who winter outdoors will pack heavy with limited ventilation to retain heat but still remove moisture. Where as in Ontario, you guys usually get a milder winter than us but cold and extremely wet. Outdoor wintering is best suited with a wrap focused on moisture removal as you describe.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I think most of the variations on prepping for winter is simply beekeepers recognizing all the factors, and controlling them which best suits their environment. Here in Manitoba, we get cold, cold and no break from cold. It suits indoor wintering perfectly, probably best suited for indoor wintering. Guys who winter outdoors will pack heavy with limited ventilation to retain heat but still remove moisture. Where as in Ontario, you guys usually get a milder winter than us but cold and extremely wet. Outdoor wintering is best suited with a wrap focused on moisture removal as you describe.
    That is why advice about wintering hives is best shared with your neighbor not across the continent. Bees heat the cluster, no question about it. The conditions have to be right for the heat loss from the cluster to heat the hive and with all the variables that can happen it could be an advantage or a disadvantage. Local practices are the only answer to that scenario.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Bees heat the cluster, no question about it. The conditions have to be right for the heat loss from the cluster to heat the hive and with all the variables that can happen it could be an advantage or a disadvantage.
    Of course the cluster heat also heats the "hive"!

    If the cluster is is generating heat, then there will be heat radiating from the cluster. That heat will warm the interior of the hive to some degree (presuming that the hive is not simply just 'open-air' combs). There is simply no alternative to the hive itself being warmed - heat escaping from the cluster does not just magically disappear.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

    Certainly there are variables as to how much the hive itself will be warmed by that heat.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Of course the cluster heat also heats the "hive"!

    If the cluster is is generating heat, then there will be heat radiating from the cluster. That heat will warm the interior of the hive to some degree (presuming that the hive is not simply just 'open-air' combs). There is simply no alternative to the hive itself being warmed - heat escaping from the cluster does not just magically disappear.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

    Certainly there are variables as to how much the hive itself will be warmed by that heat.
    At some point the heat from the cluster will be released. This does not mean the hive gets heated. That is like saying that the water that fills a cup makes a difference when poured into a tub. did the water get poured int? Yes is there now water in the tub? Yes. does it make a hill of beans worth of difference? The difference is. How much heat how much energy is needed to heat a cluster of bees. tightly packed. insulating themselves. keeping that heat to themselves. Or how much energy would be required to heat the entire hive?

    Take a heating pad. place it against your skin and see how long it takes to feel warm. even hot. now place that pad next you at your chair. let me know when it has warmed up the room.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    heat escaping from the cluster does not just magically disappear.
    Sure it does. Do you see it? If the heat loss from the cluster is less than the heat loss of the hive it will not result is a temperature rise in the hive.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    > Take a heating pad ....

    As I stated in post #76, there are "variables".

    In DY's example, what is the wattage of the heating pad, [i.e., how big is the cluster]? How well is the "room" [hive] insulated? What is the temperature outdoors? How many doors/windows [hive entrances] does the room have? What is the aggregate size of those doors/windows [hive entrances/vents]? Do I need to go on ...

    Lots of variables!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Bees Only Heat the Cluster, Not the Hive?

    I think of it more like a radiant heater kicking off about 20W of heat energy. Which ever way you look at it, that energy is being kicked off. Hold that heater in a cooler wrapped tight, its going to get hot inside because of no air exchange. Open a vent hole and allow the natural convection of air to circulate the air and it removes heat energy along with C02 and moisture.

    I totally agree with you Frank!
    Last edited by Ian; 10-22-2014 at 07:04 AM. Reason: comment to Frank
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
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