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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Seems like fear and uncertainty. Am I right about that?
    Always fear and uncertainty about killing the queen. There is one real drawback of non-intervention. That is the boxes and frames do not come apart easily and most likely the bottom of one frame is glued to the top of the others below. It is not a bee space problem it will happen if the boxes are not broken apart on a regular basis and more so in the brood area. I do not use a QE so the brood is raised from the top of the hive in the spring and gradually moves down. They glue it all together as they move down. I have seen this three years in a row. I don't expect it to stop.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post




    I am not going to buy a whole bunch of different equipment to combat SHB. No one that I know does that up hear.
    A Freeman style bottom board is not "a whole bunch of different equipment". The Cadillac version costs $34. What does a hive cost? Buy 1 and reverse engineer it. I am mechanically challenged, but I make my own now. Scrap lumber, titebond 2, 1/8" hardware cloth and 6 deckmate screws. That shouldn't break you up.

  4. #83
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    This is the same thing that happens in my hives and other's hives too. It isn't a non-intervention thing. Were you under the impression that boxes and frames were loose in other people's hives? They aren't. Bees glue things together. W/ propolis if the space is narrow and w/ comb if it is wider. It has nothing to do w/ not working hives. Plus, some bees are propolis producers.
    Mark Berninghausen

  5. #84
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by dsegrest View Post
    I am not going to buy a whole bunch of different equipment to combat SHB. No one that I know does that up hear.
    If you're a hobby beekeeper, why wouldn't you be a responsible one and give your bees the best possible chance at survival? dsegrest is right, eheartwood.com has some dandy SBB with oil traps underneath. Since putting SBB and traps on my four hives 99% of the time the only beetles I see are in the oil. I saw exactly ONE beetle running around my inner cover this year. And we're in the middle of SHB heaven here.

    Be a man and own up to spending the time to be caring for live animals. I've done my stint as a bee-haver and it is the height of irresponsibility to not inspect my hives and help them combat the issues they have in my area. I even went the 2nd mile and have entrance traps for beetles - probably went overboard as I don't see many in those. Point is, that I take my responsibility seriously as a BEEKEEPER and am learning all the time what I can do to help them survive. If I don't do that I am a failure.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    mr. acebird..it is not wise to argue with those that are willing to help you. if you disagree or do not like the answers be polite and listen, you do not have to follow their advise. use the answers as a place to start doing some research. the fact that you have a problem you can not deal with indicates you quite need likely to change what you are doing.... best wishes.

  7. #86
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    The problem with non intervention is two fold it seems to me. First you have no clue what is happening in the most important part of the hive, the brood chamber. Second you provide an excellent source for infection of all your hives plus neighborhood hives. In the case of SHB neighborhood is up to five miles away. With varroa at least a couple of miles away. Allowing a hive to be infected and infect other hives is simply irresponsible. Likely the biggest single problem in bee keeping is back yard bee keepers who do not follow decent, humane cultural practices and spread disease by their actions.

    I notice all my hives are glued together with propolis and ladder comb and I inspect regularly. Inspect one today and it will be glued together within at most two days. I do not think I have ever spent 30 minutes inspecting one hive (two or three supers and two or three full depth brood chambers) and generally less time than that. The only exception might be those rare times I am looking for the queen because I want to pinch her and replace her with a queen cell or mated queen. Even in those cases it is often a lot faster to simply move the existing hive and put a new one in place with a frame of brood and let the old bees move themselves back home. In the hundreds of times I have torn hives apart only once do I think I killed the queen by accident.

    The current situation Acebird is talking about is pretty typical of nonintervention. The hive does ok for a year or two or occasionally even three than dies over the winter. Wonderful way to kill bees. Even if the varroa or beetles do not kill the hive the viruses will. I would not give a 5% chance this hive will be alive come spring after a NY winter. The only way to refine that estimate would be to do an inspection and get a virus count and nosema count run by a lab. Why bother? The odds are so poor it is not worth the money to get the counts even if there is some brood.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You know everything so I will ask you. THE INSTANT THE EGGS HATCH?
    The instant the eggs hatch what? Webbing occurs? Slime occurs? Certainly not. But the instant the eggs hatch the hive doesn't collapse. It's when massive quantities of eggs hatch, and you have larvae of various stages, which causes either webbing or slime to appear, that you get a hive that absconds. So if you are losing hives (like you did last year), and the hive is already lost, you can easily diagnose if it's wax moths or SHB based on what's left after. You don't need to guess. Just look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Where were you when I asked the question what they were way back then. Your mouth runs pretty good now but I never heard from you then.
    Did you ask me? I don't have any record of you emailing me, calling me, pm'ing me, calling me out in a thread. No. You just asked the forum as a whole. I wasn't on the computer that day. I was tending to my bees. I open my hives more often than I post replies. That's how you get to learn more about what you are talking about, rather than talk more than you know about.

  9. #88
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    I have a friend at the local cedar mill who was telling me just yesterday about a hive in his barn wall that has been there for 25 years. Only absent a few times in that time period. He has enjoyed this part of nature immensely.. without intervening.
    But he has local stock that is hardy, comb that has never been exposed to commercial crops, stock that is not antibiotic dependant,etc. We luckily don't have small hive beatle here.
    Of course he gets no harvest from this colony. (Except pollination benefits)
    Those circumstances are pretty hard to come by.

    Non intervention 'observational' hive ownership
    is possible & can be somewhat successful if you have the right circumstances. But I wouldn't call it 'beekeeping'. It's more like putting out a bird house and letting nature move in & out at some point.

    If some chose to do this responsibly, I don't see the harm. Bring in bees from out of state, possibly with pests and disease and poorly acclimated genetics is done thousands of times every year by beekeepers all over the USA.

    Whether left to their own devices intentionally or through ignorance, methods can be criticized, but it is widely done by more than just Acebird.
    I think most folks that read this thread now realize if you leave things to chance, you shouldn't be surprised at negative results.

    (Kind of like keeping a queen from an unknown source and warmer climate than yours)
    You risk your entire colony on the unknown, hoping for the best. Surprised when the worst occurs.
    Now who hasn't done that?

    Difference is, there are some of us that like control over results that learn quickly to change our behavior & put the odds in our favor. But others tend repeat leaving things to chance and hope eventually they will get one to stick. I guess beekeeping methods somewhat depend on your personality traits.


    Non intervention methods can be done, but Ace, you are really missing out on some neat experiences if you don't get into the hive regularly. I think you need an observation hive next year.
    Last edited by Lauri; 10-07-2014 at 01:50 PM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  10. #89
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Actually I think this thread could be quite valuable. It certainly would give pause to anyone new that is contemplating non intervention bee having. The repeating pattern of calamities just doesnt seem to jive with all the advice given to others though; that, I can't get my head around.

    I am always concerned about killing a queen this late in the season and I tend to stay out of the hive unless there is something I really need to see. The weight scale tells me most of what I need to know now.
    Frank

  11. #90
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I am always concerned about killing a queen this late in the season and I tend to stay out of the hive unless there is something I really need to see. The weight scale tells me most of what I need to know now.
    Amazing Frank, the weight scale and the activity at the entrance gave me the idea that this hive was very healthy until I pulled some supers. Now you are saying you wouldn't go in this late in the season so isn't that a mixed message?

    I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #91
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    When I was very, very young, I enjoyed "professional" wrestling. They always had the old ladies sitting ringside ready to pounce on the unsuspecting wrestler with their pocketbook. We all knew they were paid to do so, but it was entertaining. I think of Ace as our "little old lady," but no so entertaining...........
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
    OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!

  13. #92
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    This thread, already has had 2342 views You have to admit, Beesource wouldn't be the same without Brian
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  14. #93
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    I am sorry about your bees Brian; but this has been one of the best threads for quite awhile.

  15. #94
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    Non intervention 'observational' hive ownership[/B][/I] is possible & can be somewhat successful if you have the right circumstances....

    If some chose to do this responsibly, I don't see the harm.
    Therein the problem in this case. Acebird has done just enough intervention to kill the hive / hives.

    He put equipment on the hive that could have been infested with hive beetles / wax moths, didn't take the time to check for that first. Next he did not check the hive to find the problem early enough to deal with it. Finally, decided to harvest honey and despite having the hive open for 2 hours did not get inside it enough to see if there was any brood or if the brood nest is OK and if it needs anything. In each of those cases the error was that MORE intervention was needed, and if it had been done would have made it possible to save the hive.

    I followed Aces beekeeping journey starting with his posts from before he had bees. reading it, it is clear he finds opening the hive difficult and intimidating and has therefore opted for "non intervention". But clearly it is not working for him.

    Although you have had this advice before Ace I will repeat it even though you have found reasons not to do it. The VERY BEST thing you could do for yourself is work with an experienced beekeeper for a day. I would LOVE to take you out making nucs with me, obviously distance rules that out. But such an experience would open a whole new world for you and give great confidence to do what you should be doing with your bees.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #95
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    All ways a fight it seems when ACE is involved .
    I say if your a non-intervention beekeeper you'll get what you deserve.
    I know what going on in all my hives . Just saying .
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  17. #96
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    Reminder Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.
    For the newby beeks out there; you can quickly inspect the brood chamber for brood in a large hive by inspecting only the brood chamber. Open the box where you expect to find brood.

    You avoid killing the queen by taking out the outside comb first. This gives you space to move the others apart before lifting up. This avoids rolling bees and risking queens.
    James Burns
    Science is...the acquisition of reliable knowledge about the world (Jared Diamond).

  18. #97
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box. Now that my usually hive is 5 to 7 boxes and 60 to 80 thousand bees it doesn't go so fast. I suppose I could get an observation hive and see what you want me to see but I don't see how that will help when the hive is 7 boxes high again.
    It's a matter of knowing what needs looking at and what doesn't. You don't have to look at both sides of each and every one of your 70 combs to determine whether you have a queen or not and whether she is laying well or not. You should be able to pop the top and inner cover, take off three boxes of honey, and get right down to where the brood nest is. You don't have to take every comb out of the box that you suspect might house the brood, only one or two to allow the easy manipulation of the combs closer to the middle which is probably where the brood combs are.

    Do you take one frame at a time from each box because of your back? Is that part of the problem? That taking a full box of honey or honey and brood off of a hive at a time is hard on your back? You had a back injury a number of years ago which limits your abilities, didn't you? Doesn't it?

    I had a visitor a cpl days ago. He has 5 hives and doesn't see how I can manage 500 mostly by myself, since it takes him hours and hours to go through his 5 hives. I didn't get out of him what he does that takes that long. He was too busy asking me questions. But I suspect he is looking at too much, things that I don't pay a lot of attention to when I work bees. The difference between a newbee and and olddrone.
    Mark Berninghausen

  19. #98
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    This thread, already has had 2342 views You have to admit, Beesource wouldn't be the same without Brian
    Trudat, Lauri. I always keep in mind that I have more of an opportunity to learn something from my mistakes than I do from my successes. Brian needs to take advantage of his opportunities. imo
    Mark Berninghausen

  20. #99
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I keep hearing how little time it takes to go into a hive yet I have never been able to do it in these record times except when I got my first nuc that was 5 frames in a 10 deep box.
    The more you get in the hive, the better you are at being able to realize what you need to look for and what you don't. You don't need to find the queen every time you open the hive. You can check the outter two frames to see what they have (food usually), then spot check a few frames moving inward until you get to where the queen has been laying most reciently. First few times, it takes a while to get there quickly. After a while, you can get there in 30 seconds. When you are in the heart of the broodnest, check for eggs, check for diseases (brood pattern, EFB, AFB, chalkbrood, sacbrood). Spend a little time checking their food reserves (but you usually get a good feel lifting the supers off). Then close it up. All the while checking for things that are out of the ordinary (DWV infected bees, high amount of SHB, undrawn foundation, excessive brood comb, overly defensive bees, you get the idea).

    Usually, you can do this in 1 or 2 min. Longer usually starts to disrupt the bees, and isn't really a good idea (in my opinion), if it can be avoided. Sometimes it has to be longer (shook swarms, making nucs, marking queens, destroying queen cells, varroa tests). But that should be once or twice a season (hopefully), and even then only 15 or 20 min per hive.

    If you are sitting there being overly cautious in an attempt to avoid being stung, you'll get stung more often. If you are attempting to smash every SHB you can find, you'll never get them all (and probably make a small dent in the overall issue). If you are worried about crushing the queen, you don't have enough experience. I haven't killed a queen in over 5 years simply by opening the hive. Twice in the past 8 years I've had a queen go air borne on me. Once she returned. Once she accidentally met the heel side of my boot, up close and personally. But if they went airborne, they probably were close to swarming anyway. One queen loss in 5 years, while managing between 10 and 60 hives (depending on the year) each year, while doing about a dozen inspections per hive per year, adds up to a 0.05% chance of killing the queen. I'll take those odds and open up the hive, even in October.

    First few years may be worse. Maybe a 1% chance. Still not bad odds. Especially when you consider the experience you're gaining.

    I'd highly recommend that you go through a few hives with someone who is very experienced. You'll pick up a few things. Everyone does.
    Last edited by Specialkayme; 10-07-2014 at 02:53 PM.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: Acebirds one hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Therein the problem in this case. Acebird has done just enough intervention to kill the hive / hives.

    He put equipment on the hive that could have been infested with hive beetles / wax moths, didn't take the time to check for that first.
    No it is worse than that I new the equipment was infested with one or the other before I put it on the hive and maybe misunderstood the advice I got that the bees of a strong hive would clean it up. I can assure you that will never happen again.

    Yes, I did the intervention that killed my hives. Live and learn.

    OT the plan was to harvest honey. It took me two hours to get the bees off the frames of three boxes and sweep as many beetles off as I could. And then put those frames one by one into empty boxes so I could take them away without hundreds of bees in them. After see the beetles I knew I had to get them in the freezer. That meant more lifting and the back had already had it. I lifted one more box to make sure the bees had honey and looked into the next box from the top. It had honey too. There are two more boxes below that.

    I would LOVE to take you out making nucs with me,
    That is a great offer but you would have to do all the lifting and there is no way I can pick up a deep if it is loaded with honey. Is that something another beekeeper is going to want to do for my benefit? I wouldn't even ask for such a thing.

    it is clear he finds opening the hive difficult and intimidating and has therefore opted for "non intervention".
    In the beginning I agree, today I don't. The sting I took Sunday can't even be found today and the arthritis in my hand that got stung is far better then the one that didn't. I am not about to go for sting therapy but I don't have the fear I use to have when I first started.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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