Spring Split - Last light or Midday???? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I usually do roughly the reverse of Lauri's split. I move the original hive to a new location and setup a new box with 2 frames of brood and a frame of honey in the old location. The original hive still has the queen and recovers in time for the main flow. The new hive gets all of foragers, raises a new queen and builds up to a good strength for winter and is often a good producer on the fall flow.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    QUOTE=zhiv9;1169322]I usually do roughly the reverse of Lauri's split. I move the original hive to a new location and setup a new box with 2 frames of brood and a frame of honey in the old location. The original hive still has the queen and recovers in time for the main flow. The new hive gets all of foragers, raises a new queen and builds up to a good strength for winter and is often a good producer on the fall flow.[/QUOTE]

    That works as well, especially easy with a capped queen cell ready to emerge. I've done it several different ways. I just find the method I describe above has astonishing results.

    With your method, if you do it at the beginning of the flow, the broodnest area can actually become quite honeybound by the time the new queen gets to laying. I do a similar method where I remove the established queen and a couple supporting frames into a small nuc and give the old big hive (WIth all drawn frames & Brood) a capped queen cell right at the start of the flow. With all larva soon capped and no new brood to feed, the foragers have nothing to do but pack in the honey until the new queen starts laying. You are correct, come fall, they are very heavy hives compared to the rest.
    This method just after the flow takes advantage of the natural brooding down period of the colony when nectar sources dry up. Natural Brooding down if you have some Carniolan blood that is.

    I did the Fly Back method last year, but as I was searching for a good frame of open brood, I came across a big fat capped supercedure cell. I placed the established queen along with the cell and let the foragers rebuild new frames. In a couple weeks, the old marked queen was gone, but the new mated queen had little place to lay due to all the honey packed into the comb. (Because of the timing, beginning of main flow) I had to give her 3 frames of empty drawn comb in the broodnest area to get her laying again and a second deep for the bees to work.


    I've also removed the laying queen and left the hive in tact, letting them make all the queen cells they want. In about 5-7 days, I direct release a marked virgin queen right on top. She goes through and tears down all the started cells. This is also a fantastic way to requeen with low effort on the beekeepers part. No digging though the entire colony to look for queen cells. The virgin takes care of that for you. The trick is, you need to let the started queen cells get large enough the virgin recognizes them as a threat. Not as long a broodless period as a walk away method, but a bit longer brood break for better mite control, as compared to introducing a capped queen cell or virgin the same day of the old's queen removal.

    If you move the laying queen away from the foragers, you must be sure to feed. Those young bees don't have the ability yet to collect feed naturallly and they will have the immediate demand to feed larva. Don't be surprised if you move the laying queen with the young bees if you see very little activity outside the hive for about 2 weeks.

    There are lots of ways to split / requeen. I'm sure everyone has their own favorite method. This is just one way that has worked well for me. Each way produces very different results with different levels of productivity, depending on the time of year and even depending on the race of bees. Your method of splitting depends on what you wish to achieve.
    Increases, swarm control, mite control, getting lots of new frames drawn, more honey storage, etc.



    I now rarely separate the older bees from the established queen, unless I am actually removing (Selling or pinching) that queen entirely. I find they are more productive and less disrupted this way.

    The Older foragers love the old queen. They are loyal to her to the death. They are reluctant to allow the colonies genetics to change if there is any chance they can keep them going (Making their own queen cells even though a new mated queen has been recently introduced.) It's far easier to introduce a new mated queen to young bees than older foragers, at least until they have no chance ( no larva) to make their own cells. Even then, it takes a while to reestablish that kind of loyalty/contentment they had previously.

    By installing a virgin or capped cell the moved colony that has all the brood ( And ALL the mites under that brood) you are giving it a much needed brood break. Anyone attempting to go treatment free or treatment reduced will appreciate this method of mite control. In early spring, these few mites are your breeders that will multiply substantially with every brood cycle. By getting rid of those early mites, you reduce your overall late summer load.

    While the virgin is out getting mated, I find the house bees do a through job of reorganizing the older frames of comb and by the time the new queen is mated and starts laying, the frames are in great shape. Although comb may be darkish, cells are clean, highly polished and feed well stored around the soon to be laid eggs. All cells have hatched and the new queen has a 'blank slate' of comb to lay up.

    Last edited by Lauri; 09-27-2014 at 09:25 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    As always, I think it depends on what you want to achieve. I don't want a broof break right before the main flow, but it's great to have one just after. Different splits at different points in the season.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    I don't want a broof break right before the main flow,
    Huh? The brood break is winter. This topic is spring splits. If you split the hive in spring you are expecting the main flow to nourish the new split especially if the queenless half is growing its own queen. If you split a hive after the flow you become a baby sitter. That would be the last thing that I would want.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Is that not what I said? I want the original hive to maintain/recover its strength for the flow. The split raises it's own queen with the foragers and a couple of frames of brood. What I don't want two equally weak hives going into the flow. The idea is too have a low maintenance split and a production colony.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    What I don't want two equally weak hives going into the flow.
    A single split from a very strong hive in the spring will barely make a dent in an over wintered queen. You will be hard pressed to have the split off half equal the parent hive even if you introduce a mated queen. So I don't get two equally weak hives going into a flow unless you split a weak hive to begin with.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.
    True, if your timing is bad & if honey production is your only goal.
    I usually leave all the honey for a first year colony, harvest honey from a second year hive and in their third or fourth year, after the early Maple flow, will break them up into the flyback swarm and several nucs.

    I'm more interested in increases and hive health than a lot of surplus honey. I am also more interested in getting a LOT of new frames drawn out. If nothing else, a flyback swarm is and excellent way to get new frames drawn out quickly, almost any time of the season.

    I'll be overwintering 235 colonies this year, built up from 10 original colonies + about 30 packages purchased in 2012. No other bees were purchased for my increases.

    Drawn filled frames are importaint, but so are clean drawn empty frames. You can never have too many of them come spring.



    This frame below was laid up by a 2012 queen shortly after a Fly Back Swarm & break up of a 3 year old hive that was 5 deeps high come spring before our main flow. This is a 2014 photo. Hives like this are prime for a Fly Back method to avoid swarming, reduce any mite loads and 'Freshen' the colony and frames. After overwintering twice, this queen is a candidate for a grafting. She would be next to impossible to find regualrly in the old large colony, and grafting from the older frames is no fun.



    Last edited by Lauri; 09-27-2014 at 09:06 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.
    Yes, I am sorry I got confused with the methods discussed.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Where can i find the followup post that Lauri mentioned above? Interested in the promised essential details.

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: "There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."

    Thanks.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by karenarnett View Post
    Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: "There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."

    Thanks.
    I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:


    Post # 188
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by karenarnett View Post
    Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: "There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."

    Thanks.
    I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:


    Post # 188
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    I have written more about it.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    --- Hi -- I would like to thank you for the info. -- I will be doing the "fly back" thing later today for the first time -- you saved me from making a mistake - I was going to give the queen part of the split drawn comb so that she could get back to laying -- the brood and nursery bees will be used to built up a hive designated for honey production -- I will be using sometime called "OTS: queen rearing by Mel Disselkoen - on this designated hive - I believe by adding the brood and nursery bees from the "fly back" to it - I can make it extra strong - Therefore producing more honey - thank again --

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I made up some super jumbo frames and will get them occupied by doing a flyback. There are so many variations to this method a person can do depending on your desired result.

    I have overwintered triple deeps that are getting full I will be using. But instead of the normal removal of brood frames and adhering bees, I will shake off most of the bees back into the original location so the established queen has a monstrous amount of bees and virtually no comb. I want these frames to be well filled quickly and good balance of ages of bees going into honey flow.

    I have several overwintered singles that are fat I can simply add the (now beeless) brood and feed frames to for almost instant occupation. Then once I have queen cells in a few weeks, I can split them at that time.

    Or I can place five frames above an excluder on a well populated hive, let bees move up to occupy and make some quick and easy nucs with some overwintered spare queens.

    P3300336.jpg

    P3240270.jpg

    P3240277.jpg

    This year, I will OAV the flyback colony before the single center frame of open brood is capped. I'll give them a day or two to settle in before I do it. I can also allow the frame to be capped and then remove it once they get a start on comb building. Options there if you just give it a little thought.

    Here's a look at my double bottom board/pallet combo. I use standard equipment for the jumbo deep frames. It will be my first time using them.

    P3180220.jpg

    After several years of beekeeping, It was pretty obvious to me queens lay up deep frames better than mediums. I know, some will disagree, that's the way I see it here.
    My mind wanders occasionally to the Jumbo deeps the Europeans use, pretty extensively.
    If queens lay up a deep better than a medium, would she lay up a Jumbo deep even better? Possible overwinter better on a long comb as they would build more naturally?
    The uninterrupted Spiral pattern is what I am after, without interruption from spaces between frames.

    I made some top bars and trimmed standard bottom bars for the sides and bottom. Used my Hot glue gun to hold in foundation. Pneumatic Stapler of course to nail the frames together.

    Here are a few photos of the Super Jumbo deeps, even larger than normal, but what the heck!
    I had to thin down the fat edge of the rite cell to fit in the grove, but the belt sander took care of that easily with a few seconds on each side.

    P3240259.jpg
    All on a 2 hive pallet/bottom board combo with sloped floor that pops in or out easily for cleaning or diversity. I used scrap FRP here for the floor, but you could use anything you choose, or change it depending on the season.
    Made 4 Frames with area for foundationless / drone cells which will go on each end, second from the outside.(Disregard the cut corner on the bottom foundation, using up some scrap)
    I have built and tried several alternative hive types in the past. They are all fun to fool with and interesting, but I've yet to find a design that beats Langstroth for flat out reliable performance.
    Last edited by Lauri; 03-31-2018 at 07:08 PM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:


    Post # 188
    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987
    Sorry to resuscitate this older thread, but the above link doesn't work and I cannot find the thread being referred to. Does someone have a working link to Lauri's additional details on flyback splits?

    Thanks

    Bryan

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by SuiGeneris View Post
    Sorry to resuscitate this older thread, but the above link doesn't work and I cannot find the thread being referred to. Does someone have a working link to Lauri's additional details on flyback splits?

    Thanks

    Bryan
    Here it is Bryan:

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...hlight=flyback
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Thanks!

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    Thanks Lauri, if you don't mind I have a couple of basic questions about your method. Just as a bit of info, I'm brand-new at beekeeping and my first hive is needing to be split. I've put a super on to try and keep them from swarming, and am planning on splitting on Sunday (Saturday if the rain stays away).

    1. You mention the importance of feeding a couple of times. Do you feed only the colony with the old queen (i.e. the one with a frame or two of brood and the remainder undrawn comb), or both hives?
    2. For the hive that keeps most of its frames, I assume you need to manage it normally - i.e. with my hive as packed as it is, and with a lot of brood about to hatch out, supering is likely necessary/etc.
    3. Is robbing between the old and new hive an issue?


    Thanks!

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