Spring Split - Last light or Midday????
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  1. #1
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    Default Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I had great success this year on my side-by-side splits which I did in the late afternoon. I am always looking to do better. I now suspect that I may get a more even distribution of nurse & foragers if I split as soon as the last foragers come in for the night as opposed to splitting during the afternoon.. I find no literature on this matter. Any thoughts here certainly welcomed. Cheers...Greathorned

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I tend to agree with you, but we might be over thinking this. More important for the queenless colony is the weather for that raised queen's mating flight. How good is your 10-14 day forecast?
    Regards,
    KGB-8Fmed

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    It may not matter so much on a side by side split. I normally try to do it towards the end of the day. I figure it gives them over night to get used to the new situation, especially if I move one further away than just side by side. Things to consider are the frame contents of the split and whether you move the split or the queen right portion away, or to the side.
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  5. #4
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    KGB, I wouldn't do this until spring, so not worried on upcoming weather.
    Ray, I would move one of the splits to another Bee Yard as I have four different yards to utilize.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Yes greathorned making splits is one of many good reasons to have more than one beeyard, but I only have the one yard here right now, so I've learned how to make it work for me.
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  7. #6
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I currently have a 2 deep hive with a medium super on top filled with uncapped honey. I would like to have a side by side split in the spring. Could someone give me an idea how to proceed. My first split and not sure how to do it. Also thanks everyone for those that partcipate in this forum.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by greathorned View Post
    Ray, I would move one of the splits to another Bee Yard as I have four different yards to utilize.
    So what do you mean by a side by side split?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    What we mean on side-by-side split is a measure of making two hives out of one. You, in essence, separate your two deep supers and try to equalize the amount of foragers into the two deeps, then move one away at least a mile so you now have two hives. One will have a Queen the other, hopefully, raises another Queen. You have to split your hives to prevent swarming.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Keep the queenless split in the old location to maintain population, the one with the queen will do better having to rebuild population. You do not need to split to prevent swarming btw, I never had a hive swarm except 1 un-managed one that came to me as a swarm. Then again, we don't get monster flows but if you know when to give them more room and manipulate properly, swarming to me anyways, hasn't been an issue.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I prefer not to separate the split hives so you can monitor the progress easily.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    To me, a side by side split is when you move the hive to the side and set the split down in it's place so that both are side by side right up against each other. Then I get bees that do go to the split, and bees that see the queen moved to the side so she gets bees too. The field force bees. Side by side to me, is right beside each other.
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  13. #12
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    That's what I thought was a hive split RayMarler too. But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split. Do you buy a queen or nuc so as to get new bees

  14. #13
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Davers View Post
    But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split.
    This is basically how I tell which half has the queen. Once you know you can move the queen right hive 5 - 10 ft away and that will replenish some of the bees in the queenless hive. They may still migrate back over to the queen right hive but you will give the gueenless hive a boost. You can also add what ever brood and bees you want as time goes on.
    Brian Cardinal
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  15. #14
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Davers View Post
    That's what I thought was a hive split RayMarler too. But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split. Do you buy a queen or nuc so as to get new bees
    Many ways of doing things. I myself will raise a queen cell for the split left in original position. I could also purchase a queen for it. I could also do it as a walk away (which I seldom do just a plain walk away split anymore). I myself would not purchase a nuc, but I could, and just move the whole queen-right hive to the side and set the nuc into a full box in my old queen hive position. That would get some bees going for the nuc and reduce some from my queen's hive. As far as the queen getting all the field force bees, she won't get them all if she's been moved to the side. The split will get just as many as it is in the original position where the bees had oriented to when they were ten days old and went on their first orientation flights.
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  16. #15
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    The split will get just as many as it is in the original position where the bees had oriented to when they were ten days old and went on their first orientation flights.
    It has been my experience that if one side is queenless some of the foragers will drift back over to the queen right hive in a couple of days if it is within reach. I don't know if you were to keep taking brood and nurse bees from the queen right hive if that will prevent the drift of bees over time.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Quote Originally Posted by greathorned View Post
    You, in essence, separate your two deep supers and try to equalize the amount of foragers into the two deeps, then move one away at least a mile so you now have two hives.
    First time that I heard the term "side-by-side" split - actually had to google it. This seems to give a good description of it: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring/...de%20by%20side

    However, the description in the above link differs from the one presented in this thread.
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  18. #17
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    I have a different way to do a spring or summer split.

    I move the entire hive several feet away, returning the established queen and ONE or two frames of open brood & adhearing bees to the old location where a new box with several NEW frames and a feeder awaits. Do this in late morning on a decently warm day so ALL FORAGERS FLY BACK to the old location.

    It's importaint NOT to give them drawn comb, or they just kind of hang out. With new frames to draw out and no place for the queen to lay, they act like a swarm and grab a gear.

    Now you have your split that will have no more fly back. Your frames of young bees, brood and feed stay in a new location within your yard without any more drifting. You could let them make a new queen, but I give them a ripe queen cell or virgin. Keep them in tact as a larger colony or break up into nucs. Feed them well.

    The old location, the colony with with the established laying queen, IMMEDIATLY goes to TOWN. Within a half hour the deep box will be about 1/3 full. In 2 hours it will be quite full and by dark it will be packed with bees. In one week those new frames will be all drawn and well on the way to being filed with feed and brood. The younger foragers revert easily back to nurse bees. After a week I move the feeder into a second deep and also give them new frames. At this point, if there is a flow on, they will continue to rebuild without feed. If no good flow, keep them fed.
    In one month you will have 2 deeps with new frames all drawn and filled. After a month and 2 deeps rebuilt, it seems the foragers are exausted and perish, leaving only young bees, feed new fresh comb and the queen to carry on. Most new growth will stop at this point and they will settle into organizing the hive interior and young bees maturing. In a couple weeks, Once the young bees are mature enough to once again have a good forager force, if your timing is right, watch out for a quick jump once again in growth. A large, healthy, vigorous, but young forager force will bring in stores like no other, if you have a flow.

    It's a miracle for an older hive that is not doing much, or a hot hive that needs a job to do so they are not thinking about getting their hackes up every time you walk by or mess with them. It's the only way I know of to do a broodbreak with an existing mated queen. Something an older colony may need badly. This also stimulates the older queen to lay. And lay up nice new frames with surprisingly great patters once again. Too many advantages to mention in this quick reply. I've done it many, many times at all times of the spring, summer and even late summer. I could really write a book about all the details & benefits. In no time, the parent colony is almost back to the same size it was before the split. And ALL the frames are NEWLY drawn, fresh and CLEAN. This is my favorite manipulation. I call it 'Freshening' or a 'Fly Back simulated swarm'

    Here are a couple photos of one I did this summer.

    A half hour after seperation:



    One hour after seperation:



    3 hours-right before dark



    Here is how the outside frames look about the time I put on another deep:



    Second deep configuration. (Early spring, before flow)



    Top deep after 3 days:



    And how this colony looks by late August after I took off a deep box full of capped honey:



    This 2012 queens still resides in this hive.



    And you trade in that cocoon filled darker comb for frames like this:



    There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more.

    Just know you have to have a good equal amount of both foragers and young bees in a big colony with large volume of bees to make it work like this. I'll write more when I can, including how I figured this out and what hives are good candidates for it. I do this to every breeder queen colony I have late spring. I can then get to the queen more easily, all frames are soft and fresh for easy grafting and for the good health of the colony.

    This is a photo of the large colony I show above. ( The 4 deeps that almost got knocked over) 2-16-14

    Last edited by Lauri; 09-25-2014 at 07:51 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Don't trees know they are supposed to stay standing? At least it missed the hive by a couple inches!

    Ace,
    Yes, back when I did side by sides I moved the queen to the side and turned it 180 degrees so the opening was now facing to the rear, the split left in place then gets most of the foragers. Like I said earlier though, I don't really do this anymore for a split, but do it to get a cell builder started. I was just commenting earlier on what I thought a side by side split was.

    Lauri,
    Very great way of doing it and great short write-up. Looks like it's a great way to do it, you sure have had great results!
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  20. #19
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    Lauri,
    Thank you for this - newbie here and wanting to do splits in the Spring.
    WW

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Spring Split - Last light or Midday????

    WW, just be careful If you don't understand exactly what I am doing and why. More complicated management must be done correctly to get the same result. If not, the results can be disastrous.
    This method needs a very large overwintered colony to work well. It can also be a fantastic method for hive that is bent on swarming. You are actually giving them what they want, withought loosing them. And you take advantage of the 'swarm mentality' productivity.

    After posting my Non cooked sugar block recipe & method last fall, I saw folks down the thread changing the recipe, (Adding things, leaving stuff out, etc) Cooking it, etc, Many were surprised or unhappy they didn't produce the same finished product I had shown. It was a good lesson for me to be very clear about instructions.

    I'll explain more in another post about this splitting method. I should have made a video this year.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

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