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Thread: 8 frame or 10

  1. #21
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicBeez View Post
    Just really unsure about how to overwinter an 8 frame all medium hive? 3 boxes? 4?
    A 10 frame deep is approximately twice as large in terms of square inches of frames an eight frame medium. It is so close that one can say a 10 frame deep equals two eight frame mediums.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    >He claimed it was the hive size that helped ........

    I know a guy in Nebraska who thinks it makes a lot of difference in winter survival with 8 frames being much better. I think they are slightly better... but I'm not sure I would say a lot better...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  4. #23
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    A 10 frame deep is approximately twice as large in terms of square inches of frames an eight frame medium. It is so close that one can say a 10 frame deep equals two eight frame mediums.
    I had my first 8 frame medium this past spring it has since been sold. More because all my other equipment is 10 frame than anything. But it seemed to me than a 10 frame builds up much faster and to a higher population than an 8 frame does. I do not assume this is a good thing. I am interested in the 8 fame higher survival. Is it possible a 10 frame hive simply builds up to much of a population for it to be maintained though winter? It could lead to an effect that more honey production results in a population that is not optimal for winter survival.

    In a way the 8 frame medium hive built up slower but it also seemed to be more manageable and it was producing honey before the larger 10 frame deeps with more bees where. Again an observation that would be counter intuitive. Take that observation with a gran of salt though because I also used some of the bees form the larger colony to rear queens so it is not apples and apples.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  5. #24
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    The drawback that comes to my mind of going with an 8 frame medium is if you sell nucs. Most people want 5 frame deep nuc. That seems to be a standart. If you have 10 frame equipment an easy way to make it an 8 frame equipment is with hard foam inserts on either side. Foam is light and isulating and with two 1.5 inch inserts in the hive you basicaly take out two frames of space. No cutting involved. A follower board can be used in a similar manner if you want to go with wood products.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    There is a much bigger demand for medium nucs than is being met. I'd say you'll have an easier time selling medium nucs than deep nucs right now...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  7. #26
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    All the equipment I have been making the last year are 8 frame deeps. I'm going to migrate all my 10 frame equipment into 8 frame deeps and 8 frame mediums. The bees seem to draw out all 8 frames in 8 frame equipment where my 10 frame hives usually need some management in helping them draw out the first and last frames.
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

  8. #27
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I had my first 8 frame medium this past spring it has since been sold. . . . But it seemed to me than a 10 frame builds up much faster and to a higher population than an 8 frame does.
    Saying 10-frame hives build up faster and bigger than 8-frame hives based on the results of one hive over one season is a pretty big statement based on an exceedingly small amount of data.
    Last edited by shinbone; 08-28-2014 at 08:39 PM.
    --shinbone
    (1975-1980, and now since 2011; maintain about 10 hives; Zone 5b; 15" rain; 5500')

  9. #28
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    bees are so variable that it takes a good experiment with well over 100 hives just to get an idea of what is going on. what is going on with 10 or 20 hives has no statistical meaning, it is a casual observation that would need more data for a definite conclusion.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    Saying 10-frame hives build up faster and bigger than 8-frame hives based on the results of one hive over one season is a pretty big statement based on an exceedingly small amount of data.
    Unless you consider it is in fact exactly what did happen. As for the why. Feel free to speculate for yourself.

    What are your actual results that would indicate this is not the norm for an 8 frame medium colony?

    One hive is a small sample. It is better than no sample at all. And at times one is enough.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  11. #30
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    It's as close to a given in the beekeeping world as you will find that all other factors being equal a hive will grow faster the larger percentage of bees they have in relation to the cavity size. 50 % coverage or more is a pretty good rule of thumb for maximum growth. It's predictable and it's repeatable. Start 100 2 comb nucs in a split 10 frame box and compare it to 100 nucs of the same size in a full 10 frame box and the results will be indisputable even when temps seem favorable.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #31
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    If I've only seen one swan in my life and it was white and I assume all swans are white am I right? Probably not. Then if I see 100 swans in my life and they are all white and I assume all swans are white am I right? Probably not, but the probability keeps growing...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  13. #32
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Jim, So you are saying. place 2 fraems of bees in a 5 frame compartment. and 2 frames of bees in a 10 frame compartment and watch the difference in how they build up?

    My experience this past season would indicate that there is also a minimal number of bees required and I think you experiment woudl fall under that. I would still expect to see the smaller compartment do better but both woudl be clearly in the inadequate range. I actually did a ton of the 2 frames in a 5 frame compartment. and they perform pathetically. And I woudl expect that to be the better of your options.

    I am still not sure just where I see that tipping point and notice your comment of 50% of capacity. I will keep that in mind with my future observations. I still see a need for a minimal number of bees that seems to be somewhere around 3 very well populated frames.

    At the very least I am seeing a dual issue. one of a minimal population and the other that you mention that I consider population density.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  14. #33
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    First off I'm not a big fan of 2 (deep) comb nucs as they take darn near as many bees as a 3 comber to be made up properly. 3 mediums will do better than 2 deeps because the issue is coverage of the outside faces. If you are splitting a 10 frame box it's tough to get 5 frames per side unless you are using a very thin divider. We just use a 3/4" board and put in 4 frames, it is best to put them in the inside 2 slots so they can draw warmth from the neighboring hive. I think 50% is a good minimum occupation percentage. A bit more is better but the law of diminishing returns begins to kick in at some point too.
    I spent the early part of my beekeeping life repopulating winter losses with 2# packages shook in a 10 frame hive. One year we bought a bunch of 8 frame boxes and we filled them with 2# packages. I was shocked at the difference in the increased rate of growth in the 8 frame hives.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #34
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicBeez View Post
    I currently have two 10 frame hives.
    I am hoping to expand this winter and I am trying to figure out which is more cost effective for producing honey.
    I like the idea of running 8 frame mediums with no deeps. Not sure if there is a disadvantage to doing this?
    Since you specifically asked about cost effectiveness, the 10-frame deeps would be the way to go. Most comb per dollar.

    You could consider sticking with 10 frame boxes and running them with only 9 frames. I'm all running all deeps right now with nine frames and have had no issues with cross comb. Also makes inspections easier. I only run eight hives, but I find that I almost never have to lift a full super. If I'm harvesting honey, I can take the frames 1 or 2 at a time. If I'm inspecting, I can move the frames individually into another box, or I can just lift the entire box since they are usually not packed wall-to-wall with honey. Brood boxes are much lighter than honey supers.

  16. #35
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    If you were to pose this at a MN Hobby Beekeepers Association meeting, they would give you the same answer ddb123 gave. The "Minnesota Method" that the beelab at the UofM advocates for (which the MHBA is joined at the hip with) specifies 10 frame boxes. They have all 10 frames until one is moved up to an expansion box leaving only 9.

    As a beginner myself (finishing up my 2nd year), I've chosen to stick with this as this is what the resources immediately available to me do. Once I'm confident in my abilities, I will know how to work deviations into my system.
    Quintin

  17. #36
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    > I was shocked at the difference in the increased rate of growth in the 8 frame hives.

    That's been my experience. If you manage eight frame hives well, you have better control over space and in early spring, and especially with a new package, space is a big issue.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  18. #37
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    >> I was shocked at the difference in the increased rate of growth in the 8 frame hives.

    The comb space of an 8 frame hive is 20% (a lot) smaller than a 10 frame box. So that would give the appearance of 20% faster growth in multiple boxes. An 8 frame hive five boxes tall would appear to have achieved more than a ten frame hive four boxes tall, but the comb space covered would be the same, forty frames.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Okay, what about overwintering? Does an eight frame stand up better in a minnesota winter? Smaller space = easier to keep warm?

  20. #39
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicBeez View Post
    Okay, what about overwintering? Does an eight frame stand up better in a minnesota winter? Smaller space = easier to keep warm?
    Actually I had a lot of experience wintering both in Minnesota and I didnt think it made a lot of difference. If they are a strong, healthy hive and they are heavy enough they should make it regardless of the configuration. It is, however, a bit tougher to get a double 8 frame deep heavy enough and the cluster low enough in the fall so the bees can move up into it.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  21. #40
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    Default Re: 8 frame or 10

    The worst winter we have had in recent memory was last winter. My 8 frame hives made out of 5/8" plywood all made it through the winter and built up well. None of my nucs died out either. Two ten framers starved out. It doesn't prove anything. However, 8 framers are easier on me even though they tend to get taller faster.
    Zone 5 @ 4700 ft. High Desert

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