Extraction question - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    It seems that Acebird cannot find any references to support his assertions regarding chlorine and stainless steel!

    Here is an additional reference regarding the hazards of bleach / chlorine on stainless ...
    Learning About and Caring for Stainless Steel

    ....

    Do not use bleach.

    AVOID ALL CONTACT WITH PRODUCTS CONTAINING HYDROCHLORIC ACID SUCH AS BLEACH, as they can stain and damage the surface of stainless steel appliances.

    Do not leave stainless steel objects to soak for long periods in chlorine solutions (e.g. overnight). Long-term exposure to table salt and salt and vinegar mixes can damage stainless steel. We recommend washing stainless surfaces after preparing and cooking foods.

    http://www.julien.ca/en/home_refinem...eel/index.html
    Note that Julien is a manufacturer of commercial kitchen equipment.



    .... got any references, Ace? ....

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Uhhh...also note that chlorine bleach does not contain hydrochloric acid.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    A 10% bleach solution is silly (unless someone has data to show it kills AFB spores).

    If one wants to properly sanitize an extractor (or any food equipment), it is never ok to rinse after sanitizing. The proper solution is weak enough not to leave a taste.

    Deknow
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Dean has a point about the composition of bleach, but note that he also did not say that bleach was harmless for stainless steel.

    Another caution about bleach with stainless ...
    Contact with household bleach

    Pitting corrosion has been reported from household bleach spills on stainless steel (304 type) sinks in domestic environments.

    If this occurs immediate dilution by rinsing should avoid pitting, but if left overnight, pitting can result.

    Disinfecting or sanitising 304 or 316 stainless steel items with dilute hypochlorite solutions can be done with care, but it is important that the temperature and contact time is kept to a minimum and that the solution is thoroughly rinsed away afterwards.

    Safe residual water chlorine levels for sterilization

    As a guide, 15-20 ppm (mg/lt) residual chlorine solutions at ambient temperatures should be safe with 316 types for a 24-hour maximum contact time, if followed by rinsing.

    http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=35
    That link is from a group of manufacturers, the "British Stainless Steel Association"
    Making the Most of Stainless Steel.

    Note their recommendation for no more than 20 ppm chlorine for sanitizing purposes.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Bleach can be dangerous. A few months ago I noticed our 3 bay sink was draining slow (i fixed it but at the time if you let one bay drain the water would flow up through the other 2 drains).
    Then I noticed that we had bleach in the third bay, but someone was using oxalic acid to clean the first bay.

    If the two mixed, there would be some amount of free chlorine gas.

    Deknow
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    A 10% bleach solution is silly (unless someone has data to show it kills AFB spores).

    Deknow
    Which is why the only thing one needs to do is thoroughly rinse or wash everything out of the extractor w/ water. Because you are not going to kill AFB spores. You have to remove them.
    Mark Berninghausen

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    IMO, also from brewing, Idophor is just a clearly superior disinfectant.

    It sanitizes in 2 minutes of contact time, as opposed to 30 for bleach.
    It leaves no noticeable residue or smell.

    And a little bit goes a long way, typically 1 oz. in 5 gallons water is the recommended dosage.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Wow. I didn't mean to start a bleach debate, I just didn't want the OP to inadvertently harm a club extractor.

    Nschomer nailed it. But if you want to sanitize, you do it just before using the gear. The only issue is that in brewing you don't care if a little residual liquid contacts your wort...it all liquid after all. In honey extracting you probably don't want that moisture because...it's moisture. For a small beekeeper (one who borrows a club extractor) a little moisture can make a difference, larger operations may not care. That means you would want the extractor to dry thoroughly before using it. Which means the interior of the extractor would contact airborne microbes without the benefit of the coating of sanitizing solution. That means you just wasted your time. None of this would help with AFB, but AFB is probably not floating around in the air. At least I hope not.

    I do what Mark said in his post #26.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    the bleach is unnecessary after use. It is more effective before use.
    Who said it? Post number 5.

    Rader I do not know the validity of your references but none of them make sense. Chlorine is in every public water system by law. It is in dishwasher, swimming pools and cloths washers. I have never seen a sink or faucet corrode because of all these uses of chlorine. I suspect there would be major recalls on stainless items if they did. 304 stainless will pit, 316 and 318 not so much.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Who said it? Post number 5.
    Who said that hot water is all you need in Post #3? Moi.(look it up)
    Mark Berninghausen

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Rader I do not know the validity of your references but none of them make sense. Chlorine is in every public water system by law. It is in dishwasher, swimming pools and cloths washers.
    Since you seem to be confused as to the effects of chlorine on stainless steel, see post #14, where you indicated that 10% chlorine bleach would be fine for stainless steel.

    In fact, the amount of chlorine in domestic water supplies is a miniscule amount compared to 10% chlorine bleach.

    Why did you make post #14 if you really were talking about chlorinated domestic water? The fact is that using 10% chlorine bleach on stainless steel is a really bad idea!




    For those who want the actual facts, see the references I provided in earlier posts for specific details. Or, just do your own search if you don't like my references.


    Note that as a commercial product, "bleach" can have varying amounts of active chlorine.
    Liquid bleaches sold for domestic use are typically 3–10% active chlorine, and should be diluted to 1–2% active chlorine before use. Commercial domestic bleaching powder is typically about 40% active chlorine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_active_chlorine
    If you are considering any application of bleach to a stainless steel product, it would be smart to examine the product label to determine what that active chlorine level actually is beforehand and dilute appropriately.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-07-2014 at 09:31 PM. Reason: add more
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Who said that hot water is all you need in Post #3? Moi.(look it up)
    Mark, everyone knows it should be cold water and it has been explained to you so stop with the hot water.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Whenever I rinse honey tanks w/ cold water the wax becomes harder. If what everybody knows is wrong, why would I stop saying what works for me?

    The real answer is; after the first person is finished using the extractor the second person should start extracting, and so on and son on. People are too afraid of life.
    Mark Berninghausen

  15. #34
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Maxant Instruction sheet packed with 3100 model extractors:
    http://www.maxantindustries.com/pdfs...nstruction.pdf

    One paragraph from that page:
    We recommend running soapy warm water through it before its first use.
    and on the issue of cleaning afterwards ...
    When you are finished extracting, you may rinse out the extractor with HOT water.



    ... maybe Maxant should have checked with Ace first ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    ... maybe Maxant should have checked with Ace first ...
    Always. As we all should.
    Mark Berninghausen

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Whenever I rinse honey tanks w/ cold water the wax becomes harder.
    Yes Mark, that is what you want. You can even use an ice cube to make it harder still and then you can flick it off with your finger nail or a putty knife. If you heat it it will melt and form a thin film like waxing your car. Then the only way to get it off is mineral spirits or some form of thinner.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    So, Ace, you are recommending freezing to get the wax off the extractor?
    Do you think Mark's extractor will fit in his freezer?




    Why can't you simply just rinse of the wax/water slurry off the extractor with more hot water before any melted wax re-hardens?

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-08-2014 at 04:04 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Alright children, I got me a used extractor that is out in the front yard. Girls are polishing that thing up after use. I got a 30 year old cardboard box to put it back into. How do I clean it and put it away? Stainless.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    I'd follow Maxant's recommendation and use hot water to clean it.

    When you are finished extracting, you may rinse out the extractor with hot water.

    http://www.maxantindustries.com/pdfs...nstruction.pdf
    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-08-2014 at 04:00 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    What is hot? 211F. at sea level is VERY hot water and domestic hot water is considered very hot at 140F. tank temperature. Industrial hot water can be above wax melting temperature; so can a dishwasher and I know from experience how much of a curse it is to get melted wax smear on things. I use a sharp spray of water from my garden hose to rinse my pails, extractor and filtering screens.

    There is no question that the hotter the water the more effective sterilizing solutions are, but there is something to the caution of not getting the water very hot to take the bulk of the crud out after extracting.

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