Extraction question
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  1. #1
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    May 2013
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    tacoma, wa. usa
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    Default Extraction question

    So, I have access to the clubs extractor...with 20-30 other people using it, how do I protect against foul brood contamination from other peoples frames? Any insights on cleaning or sterilization would be appreciated...

    There is plenty of hot water available, but am not sure that alone will quite do the job...

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Manchester TN,USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    If that were a concern I'd most likely wash it well with Clorox and then backtrack cleaning with whatever's needed to neutralize the Clorox.

  4. #3
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomabees View Post
    There is plenty of hot water available, but am not sure that alone will quite do the job...
    This comes up regularly. You could find Threads galore on this subject. How water is all you really need. Also, remember, you are spinning honey out of your combs, so you aren't really going to be picking up anything from someone else's frames.

    The previous user has washed it after use, haven't they?
    Mark Berninghausen

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    I was always taught to use cold water when cleaning extractors. Hot water could melt the wax causing it to smear and stick to everything where it will never come off. A 9 to 1 bleach to water solution will sanitize the equipment. In fact, here are the cleaning instructions from our club extractor.

    "The extraction kit must be returned clean. The kit should be cleaned thoroughly with cold water to remove honey and wax, sprayed with a 10% bleach solution and rinsed thoroughly again. A 10% solution corresponds to 1 and a half cups of household bleach per gallon of water, or 1 part bleach to nine parts water. The cleaning fee if the kit is returned in poor condition is $50."

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    That is a pretty good policy even though the bleach is unnecessary after use. It is more effective before use.

    Supposing it was a group extraction where you are not cleaning between everyone's frames? Like Mark said the risk of infecting your frames is next to nil because the honey is flung out away from each frame as it spins. The honey itself could be very contaminated so as long as you do not feed the honey back to the bees you are alright. You have to eat it all.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Greenwich, NY, USA
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    106

    Default Re: Extraction question

    Foulbrood is a bacteria that forms a spore that is very resistant to most things short of fire.

    The spores can be left in wax or propolis that is left in the extractor. If you then got that wax onto one of your frames while extracting, you could theoretically pick up foulbrood.

    The words Cleaning and Disinfection are often used in public health as a pair. Most people concentrate on disinfection because that might be the easiest (pour some of chemical X on whatever).

    The trouble is disinfection does not work unless things are cleaned first. Elbow grease, a scraper or whatever needs to be used to clean the extractor and then you are probably pretty safe, no matter what disinfectant you use. To help clean up the propolis, KrudKutter seems to work well (thank you to the person that told me about this at last year's EAS convention). We carry it as does Home Depot and other stores.

    Chris Cripps
    [email protected]

  8. #7
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    One would have to get a lot of spores on their frames to regenerate an infection. It takes a specific number of spores fed to a specific aged larva to infect that larva. My point is, it is extremely unlikely.
    Mark Berninghausen

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by cowdoc View Post
    The spores can be left in wax or propolis that is left in the extractor.
    I am not saying use an extractor that is not cleaned but spores left in wax and propolis are trapped and for the most part cannot be transferred to another frame. I agree 100% with what Mark said.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #9
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Ace that is well documented with processed (melted) wax....I'm not aware of any work that talks about bits and pieces of wax from extracting.
    Sometimes the lights all shining on me
    Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    That is a pretty good policy even though the bleach is unnecessary after use. It is more effective before use.
    If I used bleach immediately before I used an extractor, I would worry about some stray bleach water getting in my honey, or at the very least some unwanted moisture. I think I'll continue to bleach during cleanup after extraction. That way I can hand dry the extractor, air dry, then bag and store the small extractor until next time. Bleach may be moot as far as AFB, but it can prevent mold, mildew, and most bacteria from growing in those tiny microscopic nooks and crannies between uses. I'm sure there are several different ways to successfully sanitize a honey extractor adequately.

  12. #11
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Not sure what the extractor is made from, but bleach is not good for stainless steel. It pits the metal. I know this from home brewing beer, not beekeeping. We use an iodine based solution (idophor) for sanitizing stainless steel equipment.

  13. #12
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    Oct 2012
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    Cordova, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Irmo View Post
    Not sure what the extractor is made from, but bleach is not good for stainless steel. It pits the metal. I know this from home brewing beer, not beekeeping. We use an iodine based solution (idophor) for sanitizing stainless steel equipment.
    Irmo, can you share your source for the idophor?

  14. #13
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    Ashburn, VA, USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    You can get idophor from most any brewing supply store. They have them online and depending on where you live, you may have a local source nearby. Just Google "Homebrewing Supplies"

    That said, idophor and bleach are used for sanitizing, not cleaning. I just clean my extractor well after using. I don't use idophor or any other sanitizing agent on it. I've not had an issue. The OPs concern was picking up foul brood from a club extractor. I don't think sanitizing would necessarily help with that anyway. By the way in brewing you use a few tablespoons of bleach per gallon for sanitizing....the post up above (#4) has a club recommending one and a half cups per gallon....holy cow.

  15. #14
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Irmo View Post
    but bleach is not good for stainless steel. It pits the metal.
    A 10% liquid solution of bleach??? You should warn Maytag, GE, Whorlpool, and any other manufacturer of cloths washers. They might have a serious recall in the making. Chlorine is used to passivate stainless.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulemar View Post
    I would worry about some stray bleach water getting in my honey, or at the very least some unwanted moisture.
    Chlorine is a gas that instantly combines with organic material which is how it kills germs. In fifteen minutes in the open air it is not chlorine any more. Chlorine is very reactive. I will guarantee you have eating food that has been directly bleached if you bought anything "fresh" (meat or fish) in the grocery market.

    The amount of water left from rinsing an extractor would not be measurable in the honey if you extracted one gallon of honey.
    Last edited by Acebird; 08-06-2014 at 08:28 PM.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #16
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I'm not aware of any work that talks about bits and pieces of wax from extracting.
    Knowing what you know, do you feel if a frame / frames were infected with AFB run through the extractor, then removed and more frames put in the extractor having no infection what so ever that these frames could collect enough spores from the metal parts contacting the frame would cause an infection when returned to a hive with no such infection?
    I think it is darn near impossible but I would like to know your honest opinion.

    One thing I would not do is feed honey to MY BEES extracted as a group or from someone else's extractor as a precautionary measure. But worry about AFB transferring from someone else's frames to my frames because we used the same extractor, I would not. Even if you didn't clean it between runs.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #17
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Chlorine is used to passivate stainless.
    Oh? Do you have a reference for this?


    The references that I find say that chlorine is not the right choice ...

    How To Passivate Stainless Steel Parts
    ...
    Do's And Don'ts

    Do avoid chlorides that, in excess, can cause a harmful flash attack. When possible, use only a good grade of water containing less than about 50 parts per million (ppm) of chlorides. Tap water is usually adequate, and in some cases up to several hundred ppm chlorides can be tolerated.

    http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/ho...ss-steel-parts
    Here is a short summary of passivating stainless steel...

    After thorough cleaning, the stainless steel part is ready for immersion in a passivating acid bath. Any one of three approaches can be used—nitric acid passivation, nitric acid with sodium dichromate passivation and citric acid passivation. Which approach to use depends on the grade of stainless steel and prescribed acceptance criteria.


    http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/ho...ss-steel-parts

    The following article is not about passivating stainless steel per se, but more about preserving stainless steel. They identify 8 different types of corrosion possible in stainless. Of those 8 types, chlorine is specifically mentioned as a factor in 3 of those corrosion types. Here is the discussion of the 8th corrosion type:
    Stress Corrosion - Also called stress corrosion cracking or chloride stress corrosion. Chlorides are probably the single biggest enemy of stainless steel. Next to water, chloride is the most common chemical found in nature. In most environments, the PPM are so small the effects on stainless are minute. But in extreme environments, such as indoor swimming pools, the effects can be extreme and potentially dangerous. If a stainless part is under tensile stress, the pitting mentioned above will deepen, and cracking may take place. If you are using stainless steel bolts under tensile stress, in an environment where chlorine corrosion is likely, you should examine the potential for stress corrosion cracking carefully.


    Click the link to read more:
    http://www.estainlesssteel.com/corrosion.shtml
    The information about the 8 types of corrosion attacking stainless steel was derived in part from a Department of Defense publication: Technical Bulletin Corrosion Detection and Prevention
    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-06-2014 at 09:12 PM. Reason: add 2nd reference
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #18
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Rader, they are not telling you not to use chlorides but be careful. You can create a bomb with chlorine it is extremely reactive. The bleach solution is 10 ppm for cloths washers. Well below 50. I am not sure what concentration we used for electrodes but it was high. The electrodes were silver.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #19
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    The bleach solution is 10 ppm for cloths washers. Well below 50. I am not sure what concentration we used for electrodes but it was high. The electrodes were silver.

    Ace, just a minute ago in post #14 you said 10% chlorine was fine for stainless. Now you are are saying 10 ppm! Do you realize that 10 ppm is 10 parts per million? Do you know that 10 ppm is equivalent to 0.001%
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    A 10% liquid solution of bleach??? You should warn Maytag, GE, Whorlpool, and any other manufacturer of cloths washers.
    Make up your mind!



    ... and what about that reference for passivating stainless steel with chlorine? ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  21. #20
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    Default Re: Extraction question

    You passivate stainless steel to remove the impurities so it will not corrode. Chlorine is used in the process of passivization. What else can I say? Do you see your stainless ware corrode in your dishwasher. Automatic dish-washing soap is loaded with chlorides to sanitize them.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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