Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Yup, I can't be the first person to do this. I've not seen it done anywhere, but it's pretty basic. I just wish I'd done it a long time ago. The deep frames are far more challenging than mediums or shallow when doing any form of foundationless. I've tried several methods and this one is by far the best.
    I've got no time or use for frames like this:



    This is the quality of comb I get whe trying to go totally foundationless. Ugly-right up to the time it fractures-even with wires. Unreliable. No consistency.

    Here are some of my other attempts:
    Even in a strong mating nuc they don't reliably make good comb with a generious starter strip



    Same frame after I hacked out the ugly. I found anything larger than wire encourages large cell building







    Actually, any horizontal break or change seems to encourage drone comb



    This a beautiful..right up until the time if falls out of your frame.



    Even though this was attached top and bottom, it still fractures easily.




    This was the inspiration for this design. A cut out installed in the center of a frame



    drawn out and worked



    I've fooled around with several designs. Who would think they would draw out the foundation before foundationless?



    This on inspired my cell builder frames for times during the flow they want to built comb all over my queen cells:



    It helps me avoid this:



    Heres a frame of new grafts goin in the starter with a light draw on the foundation from the last batch. I get no comb on my cells with these frames.





    Type depends on placement within the hive and flow rate.
    Last edited by Lauri; 07-23-2014 at 07:16 AM.
    Lauri Miller.
    Carniolan Hybrids. Glenn, Latshaw & Wild lines.

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  3. #42
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    Jul 2011
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    Crenshaw County, Alabama
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    More good food for thought, Lauri.

    Thanks!
    Ed

  4. #43
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I don't see any advantage or savings in doing this. Time is money, unless of course it is your own free time. Any foundation savings cost is lost in all that special work cutting up foundation and making and mounting special comb guides on the side.
    What time difference are you seeing? If you have 100 frames and 100 sheets of foundation. It will take exactly the same amount of time to place foundation in those frames regardless of weather they are full sheets or half sheets. As for the gluing of the sticks. you have the cost of the sticks and the cost of the glue. my grandchildren can do the work. There is another factor. placing half sheets and gluing sticks actually for me is faster than placing full sheets of foundation. This year I went all sticks and no foundation at all. 100% savings of foundation and far faster than fitting foundation.

    Time and cost of cutting and placing the sticks. I cut them 100 at a time it takes less than a second. putting them in the frames is easier and faster than foundation.

    Then you have to consider that what you want takes what it takes to get. you want it easy. some want it better. They are seldom the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I sure don't want 50% plus drone comb in my brood chambers.
    Why not. have you ever paid attention to what bees do with "Drone" comb. I have and I wonder how it ever got it's name. for the majority of the year I find it full of honey. The only time I find it full of drones is prior to swarming. Removal of drone brood for varroa control is pretty common. It requires work.

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    And comb honey made in a brood chamber? Travel stain?
    Read it again, The comb honey is produced in the honey supers.


    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    And the time spent to sort through the brood chambers and cut out the comb honey and drone comb? And the disturbance to the brood chamber and queen doing all that chopping up of the brood chamber? The waste of the queens energy laying all that drone comb and then chopping it out? And doing what with it? Feeding it to chickens? That is some time consuming chicken feed.
    I inspect my frame anyway. no big deal. But yeah I have issues with all that time energy and resources being wasted on making comb at all. Any idea on how to get my bees to just deposit the honey directly into jars?


    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    I will continue to use full sheets of wax worker foundation throughout my hives, limit the amount of drone comb in my brood chambers and raise my comb honey up in the honey supers.
    Sound a lot like what beekeepers have been doing for decades. and I consider the major contributing factors to the problems with bees. Some are seeking better ways.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  5. #44
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    What does it have to do with grumpiness or negativity? My comments indicated that it does not seem to be a highly beneficial methodology to me. If some one posts multiple pictures of their new technique, what good does it do them if everybody just gushes positive complements? A contrary opinion is the only way you might gain some insight into what someone else sees is wrong with your new method.

    To say, "oh he is grumpy", or "he is negative", is what I call transference. You transfer any responsibility from yourself, to that "grumpy" or "negative" "bad guy". "I'm the good guy", "he is the bad guy", because he didn't agree with me.
    Sure, hide away in facebook, where everybody posts pictures of every dish they had for dinner each night. And their "friends" say, "oh that looks delicious"!!!! It might look delicious but for all we know it tasted like crap!
    I don't tend to listen to opinions of those that have never tried it. Simple as that. Opinions without experience is called antagonism. I don't consider you comments to be constructive. I consider them antagonistic. and that is what is wrong with them. They come across as rude and inflammatory. they are obviously intended to. So I don't buy that you are simply offering a different point of view. You go out of your way to be insulting.
    Everything gets darker, as it goes to where there is less light. Darrel Tank (5PM drawing instructor)

  6. #45
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    Feb 2013
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    Quincy, Mass USA
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Really appreciate you sharing all your work and observations Lauri...... Great stuff!

  7. #46
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Williamson View Post
    The question I have is about how you got away with no swarms with 200 hives. Do you feel that this foundation technique was the main reason or other management methods?
    That is a area of interest to me as well. When I look at Lauri's photos my first thought is "where are all the swarm cells". Baffled if it is genes or readily available and enticing space. Maybe Lauri just keeps the hives forever young by constant expansion.

    I like the plastic foundation for expansion. Starting comb in the middle of a sheet facing a brood comb strikes my idea of efficiency. Having brood in a circle of comb that does not yet touch the top, bottom, or sides of the frame just makes me chuckle somehow.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #47
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    50 years from now, this could be standard practice for bee keepers.
    Wouldn't THAT be something!?!

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    That is a area of interest to me as well. When I look at Lauri's photos my first thought is "where are all the swarm cells". Baffled if it is genes or readily available and enticing space. Maybe Lauri just keeps the hives forever young by constant expansion.

    I like the plastic foundation for expansion. Starting comb in the middle of a sheet facing a brood comb strikes my idea of efficiency. Having brood in a circle of comb that does not yet touch the top, bottom, or sides of the frame just makes me chuckle somehow.
    I like plastic foundation (PF100 series plastic frames) as well.... Have traditionally mixed them with foundationless but based on Lauri's excellent work am strongly thinking about cutting out the side thirds of my frames leaving a small strip at the top and bottom.... Seems that it offers the best of both worlds.....

  10. #49
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Very interesting Lauri. I may have missed it in this thread, but what is the smallest amount of centrally/vertically placed foundation that you have tried? 1/3? Have you tried less than that? 1/4?

    I'm just wondering what the smallest amount would be that would work. I've used strips as small as 1/4, but that was horizontal.

    Adam

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    "Just hold the foundation tight against the fence and go slow. The blade wants to grab the plastic if you don't do it correctly."

    Hi Lauri, great ideas....my husband has a tip for cutting the plastic foundation, put the blade in backwards, still hold tight but the difference is that it actually "melts" the plastic, cleaner cut. And don't forget to turn blade back around when finished. This works well for cutting vinyl siding. Hope it works with foundation.
    Proverbs 16:24

  12. #51
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    What about using a chop saw?

  13. #52
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    Sep 2014
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    Rutherfordton, North Carolina, USA
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    I think I will try to do this. Thanks for sharing! I am going to try to cut the frames with my bandsaw.
    Keep you hive tool sharp, your smoker lit, and your veil tight ... It's Bee Time!

  14. #53
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    I used my 12 inch chop saw, new 100 tooth blade, went through it like butter. I did run a piece of masking tape around the bundle, the cheap painting stuff.
    Zone 6b: 27 hives in Maryland, Carniolan, Italian mix mutts: Still learning - started bees spring of 2014.

  15. #54
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    Oct 2014
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Lauri, I like all the ways you've tried to configure the frames with photo results...thank you!

    Have you ever tried plastic foundation around the outside but not in the middle? I'm starting to buy into the small cell / foundationless approach, and thinking that cutting out the vast majority of the center section of a sheet would provide larger cells around the outside and foundationless in the middle. Stronger frame attachment as well, but obviously VERY time consuming to cut each foundation...but I only have one hive.

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Cutting out the center would be the same as cutting the foundation any other way, just figure the width that you would want for for the foundation sections and then use a chop saw to cut to length. Then put the cut pieces on the edges of the frame.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    Cutting out the center would be the same as cutting the foundation any other way, just figure the width that you would want for for the foundation sections and then use a chop saw to cut to length. Then put the cut pieces on the edges of the frame.
    That's not exactly my idea, I want the vertical and horizontal pieces of foundation to be connected to one another to provide strength. A chop saw wouldn't achieve that result, but a jig saw would, if the edges didn't end up too rough.

    In reality I don't think I'll try anything like this for several years.

  18. #57
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    Jamaica
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Hi StarVerl here, my experience with Honey Bee is really depend on the characteristics of the bees your are working with. I have used empty frames alot. When I am out of wax foundations I would use empty standard frame. I have gotten results. As long as there is nuctar flow or preflow, you can place an empty frame in the broodnest near to the end. That is, between 2 drawnout frame with worker cells.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt F View Post
    Have you ever tried plastic foundation around the outside but not in the middle?
    You mean like this:-



    Which quicly turns into this:-



    And if you look carefully, the gap is full of drone sized comb, and this hive already had lots of drone comb, two over from this frame was one of the green drone frames chock full of drone brood.

    This fall I completely forgot to go digging and find that frame for the 'finished' picture. I'll get it this spring, I know which colony it's in.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt F View Post
    That's not exactly my idea, I want the vertical and horizontal pieces of foundation to be connected to one another to provide strength. A chop saw wouldn't achieve that result, but a jig saw would, if the edges didn't end up too rough.

    In reality I don't think I'll try anything like this for several years.
    Seems like a lot of work.

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    You mean like this:
    Basically, yes, how did it work out? I'm surprised they filled the open space with drone cells, that kinda defeats the purpose I think.

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