I think we're barking up the wrong tree, - Page 4
Page 4 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 482
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    that's right. your talking about the grad student's thesis. i was thinking about the mitochondrial data showing that a fair proportion of ferals were of the m line. i'll have to look back at the other paper, but as i recall they were looking at introgression of ahb genetics in the south. does that get into the level of hybridization as it relates to ferals? has anyone quantified the 'hybrid swarm'?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. Remove Advertisements
    BeeSource.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,229

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    STRUCTURE barplots are pretty common. I'd much rather look at one of them than look at a data table.

    They're used to compare markers/alleles in populations.

  4. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    i seemed to have lost my link to the study with the structure barplots. do you still have it wlc?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,229

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i seemed to have lost my link to the study with the structure barplots. do you still have it wlc?
    http://udspace.udel.edu/bitstream/ha...pdf?sequence=1

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    many thanks. i'll check it out tomorrow.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    ceredigion (yes, its a county in West Wales UK)
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Some times I think the vastness of North America makes you lot think in expanded ways which is generally good, but may lead to missing the wood for the trees on some occasions.
    Much European work points towards partial isolation over millenia leading to locally adapted phenotypes with significant advantages, both in unassisted long term survival and in (unhibridised) mating success.
    Genetic differentiation and hybridization in the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) in Switzerland. Gabriele Soland-Reckeweg
    "Besides the impact of breeding management on the reduction of hybrid proportions, a natural hybridization barrier due to a reduced fitness of male hybrids seems to be involved. "

    @beemandan, thank you for the welcoming post.

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    I started this thread with the idea of comparing the various breeding schemes and their apparent failure to produce vigorous bees, further compared to bees in the wild which survive without human intervention. As an example, here is work done in Africa:

    The loss of Apis mellifera L. colonies in recent years has, in many regions of the world, been alarmingly high. No single cause has been identified for these losses, but the interactions between several factors (mostly pathogens and parasites) have been held responsible. Work in the Americas on honeybees originating mainly from South Africa indicates that Africanised honeybees are less affected by the interplay of pathogens and parasites. However, little is known about the health status of South African honeybees (A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis) in relation to pathogens and parasites. We therefore compared the seasonal prevalence of honeybee pathogens (viruses, bacteria, fungi) and parasites (mites, bee lice, wax moth, small hive beetles, A. m. capensis social parasites) between sedentary and migratory A. m. scutellata apiaries situated in the Gauteng region of South Africa. No significant differences were found in the prevalence of pathogens and parasites between sedentary and migratory apiaries. Three (Black queen cell virus, Varroa destructor virus 1 and Israeli acute paralysis virus) of the eight viruses screened were detected, a remarkable difference compared to European honeybees. Even though no bacterial pathogens were detected, Nosema apis and Chalkbrood were confirmed. All of the honeybee parasites were found in the majority of the apiaries with the most common parasite being the Varroa mite. In spite of hosting few pathogens, yet most parasites, A. m. scutellata colonies appeared to be healthy.
    Africanized honeybees, that are genetically very similar to their African ancestors, are infected with DWV, but have not experienced large colony losses. This suggests that there might also be a genetic component that provides African and Africanized honeybees with a greater level of tolerance to pathogens and parasites, e.g. higher absconding rates, faster colony development rates, smaller colonies.
    Journal of Invertebrate Pathology. Volume 114, Issue 1, September 2013, Pages 45–52
    Last edited by peterloringborst; 03-31-2014 at 05:57 AM. Reason: expanded

  9. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    I started this thread with the idea of comparing the various breeding schemes and their apparent failure to produce vigorous bees, as compared to bees in the wild which survive without human intervention.
    what are your thoughts peter as to how we apply these findings to better our breeding schemes?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    what are your thoughts peter as to how we apply these findings to better our breeding schemes?
    Yeah. Well, the weekend is over, I can't work on this too much right now, but I promise to continue with this thread as time permits. Thanks for participating

    Pete

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ithaca, NY USA
    Posts
    1,618

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    People have pointed to feral bees as a potential source of mite resistance. It depends on what you mean by "feral bees". So-called feral bees can be simply escaped colonies from commercial hives. In which case, no different. Or they can be distinct populations, such as the African bees in the Southwest USA. A large population of ferals has a far greater chance of evolving defense mechanisms, than a small isolated population. As we all know, the bees on the island off California did not evolve varroa resistance and all died. These were natural colonies living on their own natural comb. Meanwhile, feral bees on the mainland in California retain the natural vigor of their ancestors from Africa.

    Regarding those bees:

    The wild population functions as a reservoir from which beekeepers refill their stocks. No colony losses in this study were directly attributed to Varroa mite presence or their associated pathogens. These results are in contrast to other studies around the world where Varroa mites played a significant or central role in colony losses. Even though some apiaries in this study were occasionally infested with multiple pathogens and parasites, no obvious signs of disease were observed; thereby suggesting that the savannah honeybee population studied is resistant to these assaults.

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    People have pointed to feral bees as a potential source of mite resistance. It depends on what you mean by "feral bees". So-called feral bees can be simply escaped colonies from commercial hives. In which case, no different. Or they can be distinct populations, such as the African bees in the Southwest USA.

    i believe the ferals here are a hybridization of the a.m.m. mitochondrial line that delaney found with contributions from the swarms of all of the various and sundry commercial stock that folks have brought in over the years. my guess is that they are as genetically diverse as they can get. my stock comes from bees that were confirmed feral and harvested from trees 17 years ago. this stock has been thriving off treatments ever since. i wish there was a way to analyze them to see what the genetic contributions are to their hybribization. in the mean time i'll just call them 'supermutts'.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,229

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Let me park these links for convenience:

    http://honeybeeinsemination.com/uplo...althChap04.pdf

    http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/...arpyCorona.pdf

    I was trying to hunt down a reference and came across the first link which is relevant to the topic.

    All I could locate for now on the 6 month average lifespan of queens was the second link, although I've seen it cited elsewhere. Can't recall exactly where.

  14. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,243

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    PLB writes: "A large population of ferals has a far greater chance of evolving defense mechanisms, than a small isolated population."

    I think this is a serious misconception ---speciation typically occurs on the isolated edges of a population. Island biogenisis has been demonstrated again and again. There is simply too much inertia to move a species genetics within the massive interbreeding core -- clades branch when isolation narrows the population. Bees especially have remarkable defenses against sub-speciation within interbreeding populations (for the evolutionary reasons I have cited in previous posts in this long thread) --- single locus sex incompatibility, multiple mating polyandry, and half-sister kinship.

    I have written before about taking ferals out of the Ventana wilderness-- 160,000 acres of non-commercial, roadless, and prime bee habitat. These have no resistance (and compare to Fusion Powers Gulf Coast barrier island, or M. Bush's corn-and-soy "desert" ). The non-resistant wilderness bees are non-resistant because they are sourced in a single interbreeding population of 20,000 colonies (my estimate at ~~1 per 10 acres).

    That feral resevoir means the genotypes are mixed and remixed, diluting any favorable combination into the vast "normative" American type. The bees are likely highly diverse individually -- well mated with every combination. Unlike VSH or some other narrowed lineage, but consequently unable to express a fragile and delicately inbred trait.

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    i plodded through it again, but i just don't have the background to appreciate what is has to offer.

    it was interesting to learn that the bees collected from the southeastern us were pretty well hybridized.

    "furthermore, the unmanaged, managed, and Africanized bees from
    Florida/Alabama/Georgia shared enough alleles to be
    considered one population."

    supermutts?
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,229

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    squarepeg,

    What have I been saying all along? Don't forget that those southern 'mean bees' can't be called Africanized according to the thesis.

  17. #76
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    10,148

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    i got that part, that's mostly what the paper was looking at. i'm just curious as to what the genetic make up of my bees are, and how that compares to other bees. i'm thinking they are m line with the full complement of everything else mixed in, but it would be nice to know.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    608

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Speaking of genetic diversity, how does one go about to do a mDNA analysis? How much would it cost to equip oneself to do so? Are there labs one can send samples to to have it done? How much would that cost?
    www.apisrustica.com Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
    www.facebook.com/Apis.rustica

  19. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,229

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Speaking of genetic diversity, how does one go about to do a mDNA analysis? How much would it cost to equip oneself to do so? Are there labs one can send samples to to have it done? How much would that cost?
    It's not too onerous. It just takes the right skill sets, equipment/setup, and accounts.

    It might seem to be be cool to know the mitotype of your bees until they come up the most common one there is.

  20. #79
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,243

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Speaking of genetic diversity, how does one go about to do a mDNA analysis?
    Mitochondrial DNA doesn't have much to do with genetic diversity except indirectly. It is maternally inherited, extra-nuclear, and non-recombinant.* (aside -- a 1994 paper describes partial mDNA inheritance from fathers in honeybees-- it still remains, extra-nuclear and non-sexual.)

    Every single unfertilized ovule in the queens reproductive tract has a unique jumbled recombination of one half of the queens pair of chromosomes. That queen could be a cross-breed of A.m.m and any other race. Her progeny, including the lucky fertilized egg that becomes a daughter queen will share only some random assortment of 1/4 of the A.m.m. genes, but 100% of the A.m.m mtDNA. The daughter queen is a quarter-blood, but has the pure tiny mtDNA ring that provides the essential template to power her mitochondria.

    The daughter's daughter will have 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/16 of the A.m.m. genetic alleles, but still be represented as "pure" A.m.m mDNA. As a marker for phenotype -- mtDNA does not in any form account for the dilution to insignificance of a racial type in just a few generations.

    mDNA provides a marker of division of lineages (as it has somatic mutations with frequency). It contribute to studies of colonization of racial types, as in a non-mobile world the mutation arises only once, and must move to the point of detection. It would be useful as a proxy of inbreeding (if every queen in an apiary came with the exact same of the myriad of minor types of mDNA -- you would know that colonies were likely grafted off a single lineage. A diverse set of even minor variants of mDNA would assure you that multiple queen lineages were present.

    I don't think the letter-level divisions (M, O, C, A ) carry much meaning in the American landscape -- as the foundress queen could be, and likely is, 100 generations in the past, and the "pure" racial phenotype could be present at a concentration of (1 / 4)^100 (a terrifyingly small fraction). Any one of a set of queens sharing a single mDNA 'badge' could be as unrelated as John Lenon, Muhamed Ali, and Miley Cyrus.

    Cite: Meusel MS, Moritz RF (1993). "Transfer of paternal mitochondrial DNA during fertilization of honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) eggs". Curr. Genet. 24 (6): 539–43.

  21. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    10,038

    Default Re: I think we're barking up the wrong tree,

    Thanks JWC great explanation.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

Page 4 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •