was offered free bee equipment.... - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by CircleBee View Post
    So with the above in mind, I have to agree with Sqkcrk in that the difficulty of destroying AFB spores should not be taken lightly. That is why in New Zealand (in my opinion the experts in AFB control) the only legal way of dealing with an AFB contaminated hive is to burn it.
    Did I say that? I agree, but, first determine whether there is a problem before spending time doing something unnecessarily. If there isn't any infection, don't treat it.
    Mark Berninghausen

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    The concept of being able to place an entire box, frames and all, into an oven, and then coming back an hour later to remove and then place into service (after cooling of course! - Such a tough crowd :-) ) may be about the least time-wasting method I can think of. Of course we could always just destroy old equipment without trying anything, but then this thread would be no fun, and we all will have wasted our valuable hobby time here reading/writing, and not gained a thing. At the very least, its mildly entertaining?
    Are you referring to a diagnosed case of AFB?
    Mark Berninghausen

  4. #43
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    I still like it better than doing nothing.
    If it makes you feel better than it is a positive thing. But it appears you have learned and that is definitely a positive thing.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #44
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Once you remove all the water, what you have is ash, not wood.
    I am not sure that is correct. To get ash you must burn. What you will have would be more like cellulose which can be used as insulation.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #45
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    I still like it better than doing nothing.
    What is it you are trying to do? I don't understand doing something w/out knowing whether there is a need and whether what you did accomplished anything. Especially anything beneficial.
    Mark Berninghausen

  7. #46
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    > Once you remove all the water, what you have is ash, not wood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I am not sure that is correct. To get ash you must burn. What you will have would be more like cellulose which can be used as insulation.

    OK Ace, please tell us how to get all the water out of wood without "burning" it.

    Perhaps you would like to read this reference about pyrolysis.
    Even if you use those wood frames to make charcoal, there is still moisture in freshly made charcoal.


    FYI, there is still water in ordinary cellulose insulation. Typically, that cellulose insulation is just reprocessed paper (fire retardant added), and there is moisture in paper too. Cellulose insulation is hygroscopic.


    Allow me to point out that the original issue was whether wood frames will heat up in a microwave oven. As long as there is some water in that wood, it will heat up in the microwave. If you somehow find wood that doesn't heat up in a microwave, I highly doubt that anyone will recognize it as wood anymore - it is more likely to resemble ash.



    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 03-21-2014 at 06:16 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  8. #47
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    The term "oven dry" is used for wood that has had all of the free water as well as all of the bound water removed from it. Oven dry is used because it is nearly impossible to reach this state anywhere except in an oven. In any normal atmosphere wood will absorb moisture to come into equilibrium with that atmospheres relative humidity. Wood is hydroscopic.

    Oven dry is oven dry...not ash. It is just the state that wood reaches when it can no longer lose any mass by releasing water from its matrix or chemistry without changing into new material.

    There are still the elemental components held within the wood that are capable of making water through process like combustion or pyrolysis but that is different from the material containing water as such. Those are chemical reactions.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    > Wood is hydroscopic.

    I don't think that is really the case.
    hydroscopic

    Perhaps you were thinking of hygroscopic instead?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #49
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by windfall View Post
    The term "oven dry" is used for wood that has had all of the free water as well as all of the bound water removed from it. Oven dry is used because it is nearly impossible to reach this state anywhere except in an oven. In any normal atmosphere wood will absorb moisture to come into equilibrium with that atmospheres relative humidity. Wood is hydroscopic.

    Oven dry is oven dry...not ash. It is just the state that wood reaches when it can no longer lose any mass by releasing water from its matrix or chemistry without changing into new material.

    There are still the elemental components held within the wood that are capable of making water through process like combustion or pyrolysis but that is different from the material containing water as such. Those are chemical reactions.
    Errr, do you mean kiln dried? I'm no wood expert, but oven dry is not a term I have heard of. Air Dried and Kiln Dried.
    Mark Berninghausen

  11. #50
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Yes radar, quite right thanks for the correction...typing too fast

    Sqkcrk, oven dry is the term used for what I outlined.
    It is not a commercially available form like kiln dried or air dried. It is the end state used to determine a species total dimensional stability/movement and dry weight
    Last edited by windfall; 03-21-2014 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Repetivie

  12. #51
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    No problemo mi amigo.
    Mark Berninghausen

  13. #52
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    Default Re: waa offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Are you referring to a diagnosed case of AFB?
    In a word, NO! The original premise was equipment of unknown disease status. Nothing more than a desire to preemptively do something, rather than nothing, to attempt possible reuse, rather than just burn it. A question, or nudge, born out of total ignorance, but cleverly concealed, in an innocent attempt to provoke creative thought, toward an easy, inexpensive alternative to said action, that could reverse loss of investment, and be more conducive to keeping conscientious bee-loving caretakers remaining in the game, and applied toward the care and advancement, and preservation of our little winged friends. But I believe the book has been closed on that thought progression. And it's a good thing to, because we were almost on to something there.
    Beekeeping 15 yrs, 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions for Honeybee Survival! - WARMBEES.COM

  14. #53
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    If it makes you feel better than it is a positive thing. But it appears you have learned and that is definitely a positive thing.
    I will be the first to admit that I don't know exactly how many diseases there are in the world of beekeeping, however, if let's say for the sake of argument, there are 20 major common accepted diseases, and alcohol kills 18/20 (all but the spore based), then my stated premise was that this was better than having done nothing at all, and at least I wouldn't have to worry about those 18. Statistically, if this were even remotely realistic, it would stand to reason, that I would have a better chance at success than failure. I'm not sure that I am wrong on this, but have already conceded.

    So then would a conventional oven specifically designed to hold full size boxes with frames at 300 F, and maintain 300 F for an hour, be an effective alternative to destroying equipment? It just seems that something like this would be simple and inexpensive to construct, and could be made available in the local clubs for general use to disinfect used equipment.
    Last edited by warmbees; 03-23-2014 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Further clarity in facts, and some redirection
    Beekeeping 15 yrs, 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions for Honeybee Survival! - WARMBEES.COM

  15. #54
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    I finally got some time to further research the subjects, and have found several references showing alcohol at high concentrations, as being effective at killing most nasty's including many viral and spore based diseases, to nearly 99% in just 1 to 2 minutes of contact. So with the very few possible exceptions including AFB and, I'm sure, some other spore or prion based biological's, the alcohol vapor method isn't a bad idea for equipment of unknown disease status, if nothing else, to hedge your bet. In my opinion...

    With regard to using microwave energy to disinfect, it turns out there is also a fair amount of experimentation that has taken place for using microwave energy to disinfect. It is also quite effective at killing microbial agents, but it has also been shown that it is the heat from the water, that appears to be responsible rather than the microwave energy itself, as many of you suspected. I guess I won't be buying any petri dishes.

    So with alcohol being the closest to being a winner, I'm now intrigued about any other chemical vapor agents that might be considered. It was just too easy to place a pan below a stack of equipment with frames, and treat. Just some further feedback for those still reading...

    As I reread this thread from the top, I feel that I became a bit defensive as it felt like all the energy of the conversation was toward killing the ideas rather than brainstorming ideas, or collaborating to improve the current condition and plight of honeybees. I apologize for becoming defensive and / or any offense that I may have caused. I was traveling through the last half of this thread and continuity was, for me, disjointed, which at least for me, contributed to my foul mood. In any case, keep on keeping beeeeeees!
    Beekeeping 15 yrs, 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions for Honeybee Survival! - WARMBEES.COM

  16. #55
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    But then you have to ask what a high concentration of alcohol is? And can it be achieved consistently with a vapor? Isopropyl Alcohol is 70% mixed in water, but what concentration is it evaporated and mixed with air?

    No need to apologize for anything.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    I feel that I became a bit defensive as it felt like all the energy of the conversation was toward killing the ideas rather than brainstorming ideas,
    It is hard not to be negative when you know some of the pitfalls. I know that ETO, gama, and very high temperatures are the standard procedures for killing microbes. Microwaves are not used for sterilization of microbes.
    I asked one of the cell tower worker if he was concerned about having his chest 6 '' away from one of the antennas and he said nah it just gives you a good warm and fuzzy feeling. Yeah, 200 ft in the air standing on a an iced up piece of structural steel. One thing I noticed is there is not a lot of old people going up those towers.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #57
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    One of the articles I was looking at regarding the effectiveness of alcohol, was this one on Wikipedia on hand sanitizing in the medical profession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer . The strong alcohol sited is from 70% to 90%.

    I know that starting with 70% Isopropy alcohol might be kind of week, but the fact that this method heats the mix, means that the alcohol would in theory be driven off first since it it has a lower boiling point. So it sounds reasonable that this process would concentrate the alcohol vapor at a higher level. In my case, I added the bottle to an already boiling pan of water, which makes some sense, would cause the alcohol to somewhat flash off, with a brief higher concentration of alcohol. If you started with just the 70% concentration from the store, then I could see the process being at a higher concentration than the original 70%. Since the alcohol would be the first to boil off, and the first to condense on the inside surfaces, it should do well in this application. I also imagine that we can find alcohol in higher concentrations than 70% as well. But if alcohol kills off a high number of agents, including that portion of the viral agents that have lipid coatings, then we are in the 98th percentile including many of the viral agents before considering any other vapor materials.

    Now the question is weather there are any additives that could push it over the edge. My thought process is perhaps a home brew recipe that would render a stack of equipment virtually sterile, perhaps even including AFB/EFB etc. without leaving any residues that could have long term consequences. I'm going to have to find the book cited earlier that indicated that alcohol won't kill AFB, to see what other products were tried.

    So Acebird, Bluegrass and all, PURELY FOR THE SAKE OF THOUGHT AND HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING... PREFACING THE FOLLOWING COMMENT WITH - NOBODY TRY THESE AT HOME WITHOUT PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE OF SAFETY METHODS, PROPER FACILITIES, OR KNOWLEDGE OF APPROPRIATE LAWS... What if after a half hour of an alcohol vapor treatment, a chemical reaction were devised that would release chlorine gas into the stack? I haven't done any research on this yet, but again, just for the sake of argument, chlorine gas is used in most municipal water systems to disinfect our typical drinking water supply. If not chlorine, then perhaps ozone gas, or both. I believe both may be possible candidates to push a procedure over the top???? Chlorine may leave some residue for a short time, but Ozone is so reactive, that it would not remain very long at all. Consider that chlorine gas is used to bleach our flour, purify our water, and probably many other processes that are not obvious in our lives, it obviously doesn't leave long term residues that pose lingering issues.

    It must be understood that both chlorine gas and Ozone gas are extremely toxic and not to be experimented with irresponsibly. But like so many products on this planet, which can be very toxic or deadly, can also be used safely under the right circumstances, and with very worth-while results.

    While chlorine can be easily smelled in low concentrations without permanent damage or toxicity, Ozone gas is fairly odorless, but smelling or inhaling it in even low concentrations can permanently damage smell and taste sensors in your mouth, nose, and sinuses. So fair warning!
    Beekeeping 15 yrs, 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions for Honeybee Survival! - WARMBEES.COM

  19. #58
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Finding some very favorable results on both chlorine and Ozone.

    http://indoorair.net/id73.htm - Showing Ozone is effective on mold and spores.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40002085800058 - Showing Ozone is effective on clostridium spores.

    http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html - shows some of the issues with safety and use near humas, pets, and products such as rubber and ink.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinfectant - (Look at Oxidizers) It appears that chlorine is highly effective at disinfecting, molds, spores and all other biological agents. Additionally, look at Hydrogen Peroxide in the oxidizers. It would be another contender for use in disinfecting a hive stack. Also hazardous in vapor form!
    Beekeeping 15 yrs, 10 Hives - 6a - Engineering Solutions for Honeybee Survival! - WARMBEES.COM

  20. #59
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    Quote Originally Posted by warmbees View Post
    The strong alcohol sited is from 70% to 90%.
    I am not trying to be negative but have you tried to buy it? You could buy new equipment for what it costs.
    Last edited by Acebird; 03-25-2014 at 10:32 AM.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  21. #60
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    Default Re: was offered free bee equipment....

    warmbees, would you like me to send you some AFB samples so you can test your ideas w/ a known pathogen? Your ideas are interesting. But they bare testing and validating. Until you can actually show that vaporizing alcohol through supers does anything, what do you have other than theory, aka mental masturbation.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you don't know if it isn't broken doesn't that mean in all likelihood it isn't?
    Mark Berninghausen

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