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When to Open the Sides of the Broodnest

37K views 120 replies 25 participants last post by  Pathfinder 
#1 ·
"Open the Sides of the Broodnest" - Steps:

1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outside frame up into a new box and alternate them with new frames, directly above the Broodnest.

2. Insert a new frame on each outside edge of the Broodnest. (So that a Brood frame is only on one side of the new frame.)

3. Check them in 2-3 weeks and repeat if comb in the frames has been mostly drawn.


When to "Open the Sides of the Broodnest"


1. When daily maximum temperatures start getting to 15°C /60°F or above and the weather forecast looks good for the next week.

2. When Drone brood is being raised.

3. When you see a large number of young bees starting to do orientation flights in the afternoons. (Think - wax makers!)

4. When a good deal of pollen is being brought in.


"Opening the Sides of the Broodnest" is done when a beekeeper doesn't have spare drawn comb.


Why do you need spare drawn comb?


Swarm prevention is best done by giving a bee hive plenty of spare drawn comb and breaking up any solid bands of capped honey. The idea is to make sure that there is not a solid honey dome, as the bees want to set a boundary for the nest so that they can fill it up and swarm. Even the gap between boxes can be seen as a boundary, so frames they are using need to be moved.

Typically swarm prevention is done by Supering early and Reversing or Checkerboarding.

When bees are preparing to swarm, they don't make wax, but rather "save it up" for when they find a new home and need to build new comb.

"Opening the Sides" is all about triggering wax production before swarm season and then maintaining wax production into the main flow. So the bees build more comb for raising brood and storing nectar and also use up incoming nectar to max the wax.

As swarm preparation takes a few weeks, "Opening the Sides" is best done at least 4 weeks before swarm season. Several weeks beforehand is best.

The new frames should have only a strip of foundation as a comb guide. I would have no more than half a sheet of foundation on a new frame at most. There must be a HOLE close to the broodnest. The hole in the broodnest is what triggers comb building, (to fill the hole).

The "Sides" of the Broodnest/Cluster are opened up, rather than inserting frames into the Broodnest, so that the cluster is not forced to heat a larger area than what they are used to. Doing that can set back brood rearing and cause issues such as chilled brood if cold weather sets in at this stage of the season.

Bees will often build mostly drone comb before swarm season if the frame is completely foundationless. But with the foundation strip it ends up being about 2/3 worker to 1/3 drone comb. (Comb support helps. Such as wire, fishing line, or in my case I use thin bamboo skewers.)

Having some extra spare drawn comb will also really help with the bees moving into a new box quicker.

The hive should have a few frames with some capped honey, at least on the top corners. I prefer not to feed, but if they haven't got enough stores you may need to, as they will use up all their stores trying to fill the hole(s) with comb. Make sure you leave them some stores close to the broodnest in case bad weather sets in.

Also see: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290784-Opening-the-Sides-of-the-Broodnest
 
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#76 ·
I have 6 over wintered nucs that I have moved into big boxes this spring and will be using this method. I may be slightly more brutal about it and force the broodnest into new boxes if there is some hesitation about moving into a new box. Taking a single box 8 frame broodnest and configuring it into a 4 over 4 configuration in a hive that is start to boom would still be reasonably easy to heat and give them way more room to expand. I run all mediums and am really thankful that I made the decision to go with the same size box. I'll gradually force them into a 4 box brood chamber configuration (less or more depending on what they want), then bring up 9 combs at a time at place them above the brood nest for conversion to honey supers. I also bought an extractor. As I don't have a lot of extra comb, I will be extracting regularly so I can give it back to them. Will also checker board the supers.
 
#77 ·
Thank you Matt Davey for this thread. I followed all your directions and its working so far. I have five lang ten frame double deep hives going this year. Also each has 2014 summer queens which were made from my hives last year. The foundation less frames I used were Laurie's style. I used half sizes. Worker comb drawn on the plastic rite-cell and mostly drones on the foundation less. Fine with me. Also got more drawn frames I needed. Been checking weekly for swarm cells. I believe I'm past the reproductive swarm time now? Apples bloomed two weeks ago. I'm just a 3rd year hobby beekeeper.
 
#78 ·
Great to hear. I would think you need to wait until Apples have finished flowering before your swarm season is past. So maybe 3 weeks or so yet.

Just ensure that the hives are continuing to make wax and build comb, I prefer doing this until the Summer Soltice.

May be worth Opening the Sides once more if they have not moved into the supers.
 
#79 ·
I have moved two sets of frames up and the bees have not moved up into the super (broodwise) they are storing nectar and pollen in the new frames. It has been a week an a half since I last checked and I will check tonight. I also dropped a drawn medium down to the bottom of the stack (was full of fall fed syrup) at the same time. They haven't hesitated to build those frames out. When would you typically expect to see the queen jump up and lay in the upper deep? There really isn't any worker comb up there at the moment except maybe a single frame from the first move I made. Which they had filled with nectar/honey last I checked. No obvious swarming signs, but being my first real spring with bees (packages last year), I'm guessing it takes some experience to spot this early on. Several queen cups in the hive but no eggs in them at last check.

Additional info...
So I think there are 5-6 mostly drawn frames, but only one of worker sized comb. Wouldn't that almost act as a deterrent for the queen moving up? She has plenty of drone comb in the bottom deep. The medium I moved down was all worker sized comb, but I have not got down into it since I moved it to the bottom. I am hoping that maybe they expanded down into that with brood and started bringing that stored syrup up. The whole hive is foundationless at this point. Anxious to see how the situation has changed in the last couple of weeks tonight.
 
#81 ·
When would you typically expect to see the queen jump up and lay in the upper deep?
The queen won't necessarily move into the upper deep. The focus is more on the new frame(s) added beside the outer brood frames. You want these to be getting drawn and hopefully the queen laying in these frames.
 
#80 ·
A ton of good info! Thank you! I am a bit confused though and am wondering if you could help. I live in Southeast Tennesee and I overwinter my hives in double 10 frame deeps. Our main flow is very end of April to very beginning of June.

My plan is to do a combination of opening the sides of the brood nest as well as reversing. I plan on start feeding next year about mid February to stimulate growth and do my first reversal then. Then when the temps in march start to hit the 60's I plan on doing another reversal as well as opening the sides of the brood nest. my question is this.

How would you go about opening the brood nest Ina double deep? Use deep frames and place a 3rd deep box on the hive or use mediums with follower boards and put my medium supers on the top of the double deeps?

I am just a bit confused on the best way to go about it using double deeps for brood boxes and mediums for honey supers.
 
#82 ·
I am just a bit confused on the best way to go about it using double deeps for brood boxes and mediums for honey supers.
Ideally you want to use all the same size frames. But using medium supers is able to be done.

Place the first two medium frames into the top deep, beside the outer brood frames. The two outer deep frames that you remove can be kept in a freezer. Or placed into the top of 2 medium boxes on the top of the hive, (so the the deep frame actually hangs down into the lower medium box). You just need to check the medium frames in less than a week, as they will likely build comb underneath the medium frames. It's easy to cut this off.
 
#84 ·
All that sounds fine. Several queen cups in a hive is not unusual, even when they are not interested in swarming.

Even though you don't care if you get a honey crop, I would tend to do splits around the time of the Summer Soltice. (End of June for you.) So you may be able to get some honey and do splits as well.

I would do large splits of at least 7 frames, and at least 3 of those frames having mostly capped honey. The stronger the split the more likely it will survive and won't need a lot of attention, such as feeding.

Queens raised at that time of year tend to lay more eggs in the Autumn (fall), so build up a bigger population for winter.
 
#86 ·
Depends on if you are near the end of the swarm season or not, the Broodnest will likely get reduced once your into the main flow.

If its mainly the drone comb getting back filled I wouldn't be too concerned

As long as the queen has space to lay (you mentioned plenty of empty polished cells). They may just be moving the broodnest if the queen is laying in that new comb. Ensuring that they continue to build new comb is a big deterrent to swarming (as they need to save up wax making in order to build comb when they swarm.)

Open brood and eggs is the other thing to check.

Ideally you want to see something like 33% open brood and eggs, compared with 66% capped brood. That is the proportion for a stable population.

So look at those percentages as a guide to determine if they are expanding or reducing the broodnest. If reducing, get them building comb.
 
#87 · (Edited)
We are probably two weeks from prime swarm season and the main flow. I had to rub my eyes this AM as I believe I saw locust blooms... I was hoping they would hold out for a bit longer because our weather this spring was GREAT for maple bloom and has been absolutely lousy (cool) and rainy since. So I think they've been somewhat reluctant to build much comb. There was absolutely less uncapped brood in the hive than there has been, probably more towards 80% capped, and what's emerged recently is getting backfilled (worker comb). The other observation I've made is that she doesn't seem to be laying in large patches. For instance, she'd laid a hand sized patch on the newly drawn frame I inserted (drone), and then another hand sized patch (worker) in the bottom medium where I'd noticed more polished cells. Almost like she's running all over the place looking for cells? Before there was much better organization of the broodnest it seemed.

Picture of her pattern from a couple weeks ago... 5 or so frames like this everytime we checked (plus more frames of eggs/uncapped):


Now it's filled in in the middle with edges capped.

Like you mention, it's possible that they are just shifting it down some and I've caught them in a bit of a transition period. I would say there were only enough empty polished cells for one decent day of laying for her, but I have just recently started being able to recognize when they're polishing cells. So maybe that is a normal amount. Regardless, there is certainly not an abundance (any) empty combs, but the newly drawn combs at the edge of the broodnest have been relatively empty before moving them up and replacing.

Looking back on possibly an "opps"... the hive next to this one ended up with a drone layer so I shook them out and they joined this colony. I then took the combs from the old colony, slashed them with a knife, and put them out 30 feet from this hive. They ignored it when maple was going, but in the recent cool/wet weather they have really hit it hard and emptied most of the syrup. I was hoping they would treat it like a flow and start drawing comb (and they have to a certain extent), but they have also backfilled a lot.

In my head I know that the number of open cells I saw is not "enough"... I'm just banging ideas around in my head through the keyboard. I thought after our first full inspection coming out of winter (showed five frames of capped brood) that we were going to struggle to keep this hive from ending up in a tree. It looks like that is the case. The good news is that the rain is going to make for a heck of a sweet clover flow here if we get good flight weather. Wish I had more drawn comb. :p

Another thing that I guess I struggle with (because I'm new) is how large of a brood nest to expect. I have my frames shaved to 1.25" and they are all foundationless. She has brood on both sides of 10 of those frames. Smaller patches on the outside one. And she's just starting to lay in the medium that's on the bottom. She did that on maple/early stuff flow. And coming out of winter before virtually any flow (except me adding pollen sub patties), she had about 5 frames.
 
#88 ·
Wow, great frame of brood in the picture.

What about the frames from the drone laying hive ? Can't you use any of those, or put another box on the hive from that?

The good thing is that they are drawing comb, so keep them working on that with a new frame on each side of the Broodnest. Check weekly if you can.

Are you sure that there haven't been eggs in the newly drawn comb? It's harder to see the eggs because the comb is light in colour.
 
#89 ·
There has been only a few eggs in the new stuff, I look it over pretty well. I do have some comb from the drone layer, it was mostly full of syrup and they were robbing it out. They were part of my top bar to lang mistake so I need to cut them out and rubber band them into new frames still. I was waiting until they weren't so laden with syrup, which makes them difficult to handle and put into frames. I think they'll have emptied most of them out by now, though. Back in it tomorrow. I've been wanting to graft and raise some queens (mostly just because), so I might take a good amount of bees and a few frames from the hive tomorrow and set up a cell builder for grafting Sunday.

If I do that and I have some empty worker sized combs from the other hive that might help quell the impulse for now with less bees and more open space.

I appreciate this thread, Matt, and your 1-on-1 responses to many individuals within it.
Thanks! :)
 
#90 ·
Thanks, my pleasure.

It sounds like feeding them syrup is the issue here. Adding feeding to the equation just makes it more complicated.

Another option is to extract frames of syrup to get more empty comb, but if they are top bar frames you don't have that option...

I recommend not feeding unless the bees look like they are going to starve.

Have fun with the grafting.
 
#91 ·
I have another question for you. Since I run double deeps with medium supers and have no drawn comb should I pit in medium frames and then put the drawn frames in my super or should I use deep frames and stack a 3rd hive body on top and then right before the flow pull the third body and force all of the bees into the two hive bodies therefore forcing in them into my in supers with only foundation to draw? My thoughts are that by doing the latter I would better expand the amount of brood space available until the flow and then when the flow hits there are 3 deeps of bees packed into 2 deeps with foundation supers it will better force them to draw It.
 
#92 ·
They will likely go into swarm mode if you suddenly remove a box from them.

Also, if you remove frames as they are drawn, you may be removing eggs from them. As the queen often lays in the new comb.

Better to just put a couple of mediums frames in the deep for a few days. Then once they are mostly drawn, put on the medium super and put those frames in it.
 
#93 ·
Thank you! I am really wanting to try Wrights Nectar Management but do not have the combs. Hopefully this will help As well as prevent swarming. I think since I am going to use Walts CB I will do what it looks like he does and overwinter my new colonies I am establishing right now with a single deep , a super of honey on top and a super on bottom for pollen.

Quick question in your experience can I get a medium frame drawn a week till the main honey flow?
 
#98 ·
That is awesome. The reason I ask is that since I plan on checkerboarding if I can overwinter my hives with one deep body and a medium super on top with stores if I do not have that second empty medium with drawn comb perhaps I can get them to draw enough comb during swarm season to slowly checkerboard each week. Or if I'm lucky and I have that second super of drawn comb perhaps I can checkerboard the two supers of drawn comb as well as get them to draw comb before the flow to give them a head start for the main flow my placing that comb with foundation less on top of my two checkerboarded super... as soon as I get Walt manuscript I am going to ask him if that would be feasible.
 
#99 ·
Yes, I effectively Checkerboard outermost drawn frames that are moved up with new undrawn frames and these also get drawn out very well.

You may get some fat and some thin combs, as the bees tend to extend comb with nectar into the space. But you can move the honey frames around to even them out. You get more honey from fatter combs and they are much easier to work with.
 
#100 ·
Well, my queen has officially laid brood in all 11 frames across in the main deep. And a few of the frames in the medium below. I'm starting to wonder if this yard will be boom or bust depending solely on the alfalfa getting a chance to bloom or not. I shook five frames of bees into a cell builder and took four combs as well (but had 4 combs to give after rehabbing the drone layer).

So I moved another frame up from outside about 3/4 drawn with worker sized comb that had been laid up. So now there are in the main deep: one empty frame and 10 frames consisting of mostly brood (backfilling seems to have slowed). There are more bees in the top deep now for sure, starting to work it pretty well. There are now two frames containing brood in the top deep with about three frames on each side ranging from mostly empty to mostly full. I pulled four of their mostly pollen/mostly honey frames into the cell builder and replaced with mostly empty combs. It doesn't seem like I have taken any bees from the hive to be honest... still a bunch. And they're still plowing through pollen patty pretty quickly. I am nearly out of patties that I made so I think they're about done getting new.

Saw the queen walking around the upper deep yesterday looking in cells (that were full or partially full) of honey. There are other empty frames up there, I hope she found them after I closed them back up.

Considering moving my started cells onto the top of my big colony above excluder this afternoon (48-hours after graft), but I REALLY don't want to have something goofy go wrong and loose that queen. And it's my first swing at queen rearing, so the chances of that happening seem pretty large right now.
 
#101 ·
All that sounds like things are going well.

If you want to put the cell back on above an excluder, make sure you have a top entrance facing the opposite direction to the bottom one. That way if a virgin queen leaves the hive she is much less likely to go back in the bottom entrance and kill your great queen. But that's getting off topic...
 
#102 ·
I'm a bit more worried about her ending up slipping through the excluder. And I am planning on moving the cells into mating nucs anyway. I just don't want to have grafted a bit older larva and have it emerge a day before I expect and have her axe the cells and the queen.

Not trying to drag off topic. :)

Anyway, it seems like they have now accepted the space above as expansion area to a certain extent at least. We are still a couple of weeks away from prime swarming here. Black locust just popped in the last couple of days. Basswood I believe has started or will be very soon. I think those two are what pushes them over the edge typically.
 
#104 ·
I don't understand why these bees aren't drawing much comb. The broodnest does appear to be getting bigger. But comb building has stopped or at least slowed very much. No queen cups with eggs or larva. I've already had to split a couple of top bar hives that were getting ready to swarm. Got my first swarm call also on Monday. I'm almost disappointed that they aren't making swarm cells... as odd as that sounds. They are certainly packing in nectar. The boxes are heavier, I just keep forgetting my scale so that I can monitor weight gain. Queen still laying fresh eggs, but a lot of frames of capped brood so should see a boost in population here in the next week or so. She keeps laying the outside comb with brood and I keep moving it up into the center of the top deep where she is now laying actively.

So the hive is a medium on bottom, getting full of lots of pollen two middle frames have capped worker brood on about 3/4 of the frame, still quite a bit of capped syrup/honey in that box as well. Then a deep on top of that, 11 frames that I've shaved to 1.25" end bars. 10 frames with brood, one barely drawn then I moved the other outside frame w/ brood up so two mostly empty bars on the outsides now. Then the second deep. I took four combs out of this when I made up my cell builder (a couple were cut from the drone layer and rubber banded). I don't have an exact count, but there'd probably 6 of the 11 frames in the top deep that are 90% drawn. Three in the middle have brood on them and she is visiting the upper deep to lay now. I'm considering spacing with new frames on the outside of the brood frames and just sliding the frames of honey towards the sides. Same concept as opening the sides as discussed here, but the frames wouldn't go "up" when pulled, just to the side. At least until they need supered. We are nearing our main flow.

If only there were some magic bullet to keep my top bar hives from swarming. :)
 
#106 ·
In a normal Lang hive you will find drones raised toward the outside of the brood nest. How does it work in a Long hive when you add frames in one direction on the edge of the brood nest? Where do they make drones?
 
#108 ·
Ace, I have mostly used foundation strips until this last season, so there is usually drone comb towards the sides or the bottom of frames.

With new (foundationless) frames it depends on the time of year and the current drone population as to what type of comb is drawn. In spring the bees will typically build drone comb, unless you give them a foundation starter strip. When they have enough drones in the hive they then can draw completely worker comb in a frame placed in that position.

Pathfinder, I have used both a horizontal starter strip of foundation and a half sheet of foundation placed in the middle of the frame.

With the foundation starter strip I often see about 2/3 worker comb (that transitions) to 1/3 drone comb on a frame. With the drone comb either being on the sides or the bottom of the frame.

With the half sheet of foundation you get more of a guarantee of worker comb in the middle, all the way down the frame and drone comb on the sides. I would recommend this type of frame as the Broodnest is more consistent and more like a barrel shape. And frames can be moved easier (like doing a split) if needed.
 
#110 ·
Ace, I have mostly used foundation strips until this last season, so there is usually drone comb towards the sides or the bottom of frames.
After the frames are drawn do you have to re-arrange them the next year or just let it go. I don't pay attention to what goes where in my Lang hives but I do try to add a few frames of partial foundation each year so they can build what ever.
 
#109 ·
My bees drew about 2-3 combs of nearly full drone, I started moving them up so I didn't have her actively laying that many frames. They've stopped drawing drone comb now and the newly drawn stuff is worker comb. I'm 100% foundationless at the moment. Considering breaking out the Mann Lake plastic frames I've got. Haven't had a chance to shave them down to 1.25" at the endbars though. :/
 
#111 · (Edited)
If there are a few frames with a lot of drone comb in the Broodnest area, once they have no brood in them, I tend to move them to the outsides of the Broodnest area. The Broodnest area being frames with dark comb (from old cocoons), not necessarily frames with brood in them. The rest of the frames stay in the same order.
 
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