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Thread: the "eco floor"

  1. #41
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    Now for me Would I "Pay" for the Eco floor which IMO is a 8-12 years head start on the fill up of my hive, Not likely, I'd rather spent the 125 on some good Vodka if you follow my drift. Later,, respectfully,
    GG
    I would pay for it either, GG.
    But since the free materials are abound, I just like playing with the tools now and then.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I would pay for it either, GG.
    But since the free materials are abound, I just like playing with the tools now and then.
    I have a 5 inch drawer under 2 of my Langs for a test. this spring they were the cleanest hives. the solid BB had 2 inches of mush wet bees , mold etc. I used a 3/8 mesh so the bees could go thru if needed. they did "prime/propolize the drawer, much to my surprise. My fear is if I fail to super in time they would build comb threw the mesh floor. so if your experience they stay a bit off the floor that is good news. I used the mesh to avoid mice and shrews getting into the hive. Also in the hot time when curing honey I open the drawer a bit 2 inches for better air flow

  4. #43
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    I would pay for it either, GG..
    I meant - I would NOT pay.
    I pay for nothing, really.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  5. #44
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    so if your experience they stay a bit off the floor that is good news.
    It is all about "inside" vs. the "outside".
    Whatever is "outside" - does not get cleaned.
    Depending on your particular model of hive and management, the boundaries of the "outside" around the bee nest are getting defined differently.
    Sometimes the floor is included into the "inside".
    Sometimes - not.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  6. #45
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Maybe we have different bees. My bees clean outside also, if there are dead bees in the grass withing a foot or two of the entrance they pick them up and fly away with them.

    Next week i am starting the final wintering down round, (going into winter here). The only time i ever scrape a bottom board is if there has been some kind of hive disaster or death, and the whole hive needs a cleanup. Other than that I never scrape them because it destroys the little nodes the bees build on them to get a lift up onto the frame bottoms.

    So I'll get a pic of a typical bottom board that's been on a hive a few years and never been scraped, and post it here.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  7. #46

    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Why? Wasn‘t meant to be a talking-down?

  8. #47

    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Citation:

    Walls. The wails of nest cavities were always solid (see 1. Nest "Site, Tree condition) and coated with propolis on their inner surfaces. Figure 7 shows a small area of this propolis coating. In finished nests the propolis layer was thick and completely covered a nest cavity's floor, walls and ceiling to form the propolis envelope drawn in figure 3. The thickness of this layer varied between 0.1 and 2.3 ram, but was generally in the 0.3 to 0.5 mm range.
    We dissected several unfinished nests and thus observed the intermediate stages in the preparation of nest cavity wails. When combs only partially filled a cavity, the nest cavity's inner surface was solid and smooth with propolis only around the combs. Lower in the cavity, below the level of the combs, a layer of soft, rotten wood coated the cavity walls. This punkwood lining was up to 20 mm thick. Apparently, before bees build combs they scrape the loose, rotten wood off the walls, thereby exposing firm wood which they then coat with propolis.

    This preparation of cavity wails probably serves many functions. First, clean and solid walls are essential for tight comb attachment. Also, nest defense and homeostasis of the nest atmosphere are certainly simplified by the propolis envelope which plugs small openings. Nest sanitation is probably improved since propolis is bacteriocidal (LAvm, 1968). And since propolis repels water, the propolis envelope may waterproof the nest from tree sap and other external moisture. Furthermore, because polypore fungi probably produce the nest cavi- ties (GRAY,1959), honey bees may face the problem of continued fungal decay of their nest cavity wails. The two actions of scraping decaying wood off the cavity walls, which removes fungal mycelia, plus coating the cavity walls with propolis, which is waterproof and fungicidal (LAvI~, 1968), may inhibit the wood rotting fungi. Finally, WALR~CHT (1962) ascribes a conmmnication function to the propolis layer: propolized walls signal completion of that portion of the nest.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...is_mellifera_L

  9. #48

    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    When that „eco-floor “ came up some 10 years ago, I asked Professor Seeley about it. From personal communication and from what I remember he said, that at latest in the second year everything that can‘t be thrown out, is heavily propolized and ends up thickly covered.

    Of course you can doubt whatever you want. Be free to do so. I observe the same as Seeley. At least in strong enough hives.

  10. #49

    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    In a German book about beekeeping in log hives, dating back as far as 1569, it is described that log hives were not harvested before five years after initial population.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Got out today and started final wintering down of the hives. Here's a pic of a bottom board I lifted the hive body off, this will be pretty much the same as every other bottom board. This particular hive was established in 2014, and has never had the bottom board scraped. Doesn't quite show but the whole inside surface is covered with a thin layer of propolis, and I had to hive tool the box off it to break the propolis seal also.

    The little nodes the bees build to give them a lift up to the frame bottom bars can be seen, and there is also a little bead of propolis along the front where entrance guards have been placed in previous winters.

    Admittedly it is the end of our summer so there has been a good population of bees to keep it thoroughly clean. In early spring it could look a little different with a bit of dirt on it, but the bees will clean it up once they are able.

    I do think the pic demonstrates that the bees clean if able to, and do not purposely propagate a "biological layer" of dirt to house other kinds of bugs.

    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  12. #51
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    .
    A close up showing the propolis work.

    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  13. #52
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    .
    A close up showing the propolis work.

    Nice pic, does look well propolized. sealed for winter

  14. #53
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Agreed. To us, propolis is messy stuff, that we have to break and scrape every time we are in a hive.

    But from where the bees are looking, i am sure their hive is a nice, snug, cosy, and clean thing, with a nice coat of propolis over all surfaces and sealing all unwanted cracks, joints, and crevises.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  15. #54
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    But the trash will be right there, on the floor, next time I will look into it in 2-3 weeks.
    Will take a photo and hang right here to show you.
    Yes please, a photo would be great to understand what is going on here.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  16. #55
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes please, a photo would be great to understand what is going on here.
    Greg I think Oldtimer has lower entrance straight out bottom board, Do You have a hole in each box , Would the lift of the debris cause less of it to be removed? this may relate to the mechanics of getting the debris moved out. I have played with logs in the past, moving heavy stuff along the ground may be doable but If I had to stuff logs out a port hole, they would still be where they started at.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Good points, the pics should also show the entrance placement etc, so we can understand how this is working for you. Also screenage, and any such info.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  18. #57
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
    Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
    When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".

    This is the hive am talking about - workforce was sufficiently strong to fill 4 Lang med boxes tightly before I split them.
    20190421_163754.jpg
    They pulled lots of trash out of the shaving-filled walls (what they could easily dislodge) and dumped them on the floor (so thickly trashed, I could hardly see the floor - to my surprise).
    20180924_120233.jpg

    I did not have time yet to inspect them since I split them 2 weeks ago (just one of my 7 locations to juggle).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  19. #58
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
    Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
    When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".

    right,, but you would have to agree as the effort to remove debris goes up the amount removed would go down. My Langs tend to tilt 5 degrees down hill to allow water from rain to run out not in. So in the debris dragging effort these bees are going straight out and slightly down hill. So at some point the mechanics of how the debris is removed has a bearing on the bees tolerance to leave it be. So you maybe associating the bees desire to remove the debris with the "need" to have it present. Hive design may play a bigger role than originally perceived, to the "ECO" needs .
    GG

  20. #59
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Goose View Post
    I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
    Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
    When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".

    right,, but you would have to agree as the effort to remove debris goes up the amount removed would go down. My Langs tend to tilt 5 degrees down hill to allow water from rain to run out not in. So in the debris dragging effort these bees are going straight out and slightly down hill. So at some point the mechanics of how the debris is removed has a bearing on the bees tolerance to leave it be. So you maybe associating the bees desire to remove the debris with the "need" to have it present. Hive design may play a bigger role than originally perceived, to the "ECO" needs .
    GG
    It indeed may be so.
    But again - the tall frames have some to do with it.
    Notice how often beeks fret about bees building cross-comb under the frames if too much under-frame space is allegedly left.
    Such a common subject.
    Why is it?
    Because somehow they have the strong urge do go down.
    Why is it?
    Because desired uninterrupted vertical span is not sufficient - my layman's theory (scientifically unproven).

    For me it is a never issue.
    If anything, I have trouble to pull the bees down.
    The tall frame gives enough uninterrupted vertical span to cancel that "downward" urge.
    With the tall frames, the "inside/outside" edge seems to go somewhere above the floor.
    Why?
    I observe how bees just avoid the floor in general.
    They have no significant interest in the floor (a good thing IMO - fewer dropped mites get to ride back up).
    They tend to hang above it on the frames and on the combs.
    Notice how they terminate the combs - that is where they stop and where they tend to hang about.
    20190322_173959.jpg
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame experimentation.

  21. #60
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    Default Re: the "eco floor"

    interesting observations, have you tried to move the bottom bar up and inch or 2 or the floor down an inch or 2? like are they staying up from the bar or the floor. I often need to put frames from the bottom box up into the 2nd or 3 to get the last little bit drawn, down to the bottom bar.
    Have you tried really deep frames like 36inch, just to see what they would do? I read the Layens books that talk about the bees wanting 19-20 inches of comb. I also see cutouts in walls that have 4 foot combs but they are narrow cavity. Bees sure are interesting Bugs.
    GG

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