I ran across this video a week ago and became intrigued. I have heard many times before that the beehive is more than just bees - various bacteria and fungi live in there and help the ecology of the hive. I am curious if anyone has any information on this hive floor or has perhaps tried anything similar. I could see this thing going really well or terribly wrong.
Walls. The wails of nest cavities were always solid (see 1. Nest "Site, Tree condition) and coated with propolis on their inner surfaces. Figure 7 shows a small area of this propolis coating. In finished nests the propolis layer was thick and completely covered a nest cavity's floor, walls and ceiling to form the propolis envelope drawn in figure 3. The thickness of this layer varied between 0.1 and 2.3 ram, but was generally in the 0.3 to 0.5 mm range.
We dissected several unfinished nests and thus observed the intermediate stages in the preparation of nest cavity wails. When combs only partially filled a cavity, the nest cavity's inner surface was solid and smooth with propolis only around the combs. Lower in the cavity, below the level of the combs, a layer of soft, rotten wood coated the cavity walls. This punkwood lining was up to 20 mm thick. Apparently, before bees build combs they scrape the loose, rotten wood off the walls, thereby exposing firm wood which they then coat with propolis.
This preparation of cavity wails probably serves many functions. First, clean and solid walls are essential for tight comb attachment. Also, nest defense and homeostasis of the nest atmosphere are certainly simplified by the propolis envelope which plugs small openings. Nest sanitation is probably improved since propolis is bacteriocidal (LAvm, 1968). And since propolis repels water, the propolis envelope may waterproof the nest from tree sap and other external moisture. Furthermore, because polypore fungi probably produce the nest cavi- ties (GRAY,1959), honey bees may face the problem of continued fungal decay of their nest cavity wails. The two actions of scraping decaying wood off the cavity walls, which removes fungal mycelia, plus coating the cavity walls with propolis, which is waterproof and fungicidal (LAvI~, 1968), may inhibit the wood rotting fungi. Finally, WALR~CHT (1962) ascribes a conmmnication function to the propolis layer: propolized walls signal completion of that portion of the nest.
When that „eco-floor “ came up some 10 years ago, I asked Professor Seeley about it. From personal communication and from what I remember he said, that at latest in the second year everything that can‘t be thrown out, is heavily propolized and ends up thickly covered.
Of course you can doubt whatever you want. Be free to do so. I observe the same as Seeley. At least in strong enough hives.
In a German book about beekeeping in log hives, dating back as far as 1569, it is described that log hives were not harvested before five years after initial population.
Got out today and started final wintering down of the hives. Here's a pic of a bottom board I lifted the hive body off, this will be pretty much the same as every other bottom board. This particular hive was established in 2014, and has never had the bottom board scraped. Doesn't quite show but the whole inside surface is covered with a thin layer of propolis, and I had to hive tool the box off it to break the propolis seal also.
The little nodes the bees build to give them a lift up to the frame bottom bars can be seen, and there is also a little bead of propolis along the front where entrance guards have been placed in previous winters.
Admittedly it is the end of our summer so there has been a good population of bees to keep it thoroughly clean. In early spring it could look a little different with a bit of dirt on it, but the bees will clean it up once they are able.
I do think the pic demonstrates that the bees clean if able to, and do not purposely propagate a "biological layer" of dirt to house other kinds of bugs.
Agreed. To us, propolis is messy stuff, that we have to break and scrape every time we are in a hive.
But from where the bees are looking, i am sure their hive is a nice, snug, cosy, and clean thing, with a nice coat of propolis over all surfaces and sealing all unwanted cracks, joints, and crevises.
Good points, the pics should also show the entrance placement etc, so we can understand how this is working for you. Also screenage, and any such info.
I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".
This is the hive am talking about - workforce was sufficiently strong to fill 4 Lang med boxes tightly before I split them.
They pulled lots of trash out of the shaving-filled walls (what they could easily dislodge) and dumped them on the floor (so thickly trashed, I could hardly see the floor - to my surprise).
I did not have time yet to inspect them since I split them 2 weeks ago (just one of my 7 locations to juggle).
I never had standard lower entrances (as in off-the-shelf Lang setups) and have no plans for them in my equipment.
Moving towards "log-ish" designs instead (with entrances tending upwards).
When you do this (in conjunction with tall frames and plenty of general hive space), you start noticing how the hive bottom is becoming the "outside".
right,, but you would have to agree as the effort to remove debris goes up the amount removed would go down. My Langs tend to tilt 5 degrees down hill to allow water from rain to run out not in. So in the debris dragging effort these bees are going straight out and slightly down hill. So at some point the mechanics of how the debris is removed has a bearing on the bees tolerance to leave it be. So you maybe associating the bees desire to remove the debris with the "need" to have it present. Hive design may play a bigger role than originally perceived, to the "ECO" needs .
GG
It indeed may be so.
But again - the tall frames have some to do with it.
Notice how often beeks fret about bees building cross-comb under the frames if too much under-frame space is allegedly left.
Such a common subject.
Why is it?
Because somehow they have the strong urge do go down.
Why is it?
Because desired uninterrupted vertical span is not sufficient - my layman's theory (scientifically unproven).
For me it is a never issue.
If anything, I have trouble to pull the bees down.
The tall frame gives enough uninterrupted vertical span to cancel that "downward" urge.
With the tall frames, the "inside/outside" edge seems to go somewhere above the floor.
Why?
I observe how bees just avoid the floor in general.
They have no significant interest in the floor (a good thing IMO - fewer dropped mites get to ride back up).
They tend to hang above it on the frames and on the combs.
Notice how they terminate the combs - that is where they stop and where they tend to hang about.
interesting observations, have you tried to move the bottom bar up and inch or 2 or the floor down an inch or 2? like are they staying up from the bar or the floor. I often need to put frames from the bottom box up into the 2nd or 3 to get the last little bit drawn, down to the bottom bar.
Have you tried really deep frames like 36inch, just to see what they would do? I read the Layens books that talk about the bees wanting 19-20 inches of comb. I also see cutouts in walls that have 4 foot combs but they are narrow cavity. Bees sure are interesting Bugs.
GG
I have not, GG.
This is because I am just a practical dude and so take advantage of existing Lang stuff (going for the cheap/easy/quick ways).
When retired and kids grow - will see.
But here is another idea to chew on:
1)we established how the swarms prefer 40-60 liter cavities the best;
2)we also established how typical tree cavities are about 30cm/12" in diameter;
3)do a calculation and you will see that an approximate cylinder with 30cm in diameter and 40-60 liters in volume will be about 50-60cm in height (60cm ~ 24").
And so, it would be normal and natural and desirable(???) to build vertically uninterrupted combs starting at the static upper base and downwards somewhere in 50-60cm range .
It maybe after doing this for ~30-40M years, the bee memory has been wired in and is very strong (for the forest populations; the savanna/mountain populations could evolve differently).
My setup is probably approaching the "desirable" span of a forest bee, and that what is going on.
I jumped into the eco floor idea and tried using peat moss and I won't be doing that again. The wax moths absolutely thrive in it. So now I have to come up with some way to raise the bottom in a hive that has bees in it. Thinking about some slatted rack modules of sorts, maybe sections of them about 4 or 5 frames wide and set out 4 or frames at a time to put em in place. I did have enough sense to put hinges on the bottom so at least I can do a good cleaning later which I already did when I dumped the peat moss.
If I get to this project (seems doubtful - got bigger fish to fry), I may just do some rough wood shavings and bark chunks and so it will be a pass-through filter of sort.
Bees will be able to get inside this floor as they see fit (just like with my "eco-walls").
I did a kind of "eco-floors" in a couple of my trap hives already - the floor-less design (just wire screen) - did not produce any swarms into the second season now.
So now I plugged the trap bottoms with well-used burlaps folded several times (give off smell to).
As far as raising that floor UP, I would leave it as is and not worry anymore (after scooping the moss out).
Under-frame space is good.
As far as wax moths - they don't eat the combs covered by the bees and a non-issue (also a non-issue after the warm season).
Yes - they may look concerning and intimidating.
But they don't eat bees and they don't eat combs guarded by the bees.
I rescued (paid job, of course) this colony in an oak tree this winter and mounted it on a pallet. These survivors have expanded so much that they have excavated thru their EcoFloor material and pushed it out the bottom and added that as an entrance. See picture if EcoFloor material attached.
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