What's everyone using for TREAMENTS?? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    I'm using maqs right now on my 90 production colonies, and crossing my fingers. last year i used hopguard in the spring and made a good honey crop. i used it again in the fall, but for only 2 weeks instead of three, and lost forty of eighty colonies by december. Only a few made it until spring. my current plan involves getting better at keeping them alive, and then running some treatment free and some as i am now.justin

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Ouch, Justin, how many is a few?

  4. #63
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    I'll just say that science is more than just a method. It's a belief system.

    I fed my bees LAB fermented syrup and milk, and they didn't die.

    It's a different kind of treatment that's making the rounds in the literature.

    Why did I try it out?

    It's not just the science behind it. I personally believe in probiotics.

    What makes for a great published study?

    It's the Principal Investigators (PIs) behind it.

    I can say this because of all the seminars, and seminar courses, I've been through.

    Their beliefs shine through.

    Of course, the other elements of the scientific method need to be there, and they can be truly brilliant as well.

    WLC.

  5. #64
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    On hives with greater than 12 mites in a PS roll: Formic on a fume board. So far the mite count is really knocked down but a couple of my hives I checked this weekend look pretty weak. I need to get them some food or write them off!
    http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FAFumigat.pdf
    Jury is still out.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  6. #65
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    What makes for a great published study?

    It's the Principal Investigators (PIs) behind it.

    I can say this because of all the seminars, and seminar courses, I've been through.

    Their beliefs shine through.

    Of course, the other elements of the scientific method need to be there, and they can be truly brilliant as well.

    WLC.

    agreed. the other thing is that there are a lot of competing beliefs out there and even after a study is published in a peer reviewed journal, it will still receive a lot of scrutiny from those with competing beliefs challenging the methodology and conclusions.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #66
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Scientists included.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #67
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    especially scientists.
    journaling the growth of a (mite) treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #68
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    mineral county,Montana USA
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    "ouch, Justin, how many is a few?"
    only 11 survived, and then a bear got one in may. i work for a comm. beek in the spring and was paid in nuc's this year, introduced some new blood from a couple sources, and am treating for winter bees earlier this time. i'm only treating for mites this year vs. tylan and fumadil last year. living and hopefully learning.

  10. #69
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    .

    This video should be required-viewing for all 7th-graders:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DFKqgWuCBA

    Last edited by PatBeek; 08-21-2013 at 09:16 AM.
    www.savebeesflorida.com (Honeybee removals and top bar hives)

  11. #70
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Thanks for posting that link, PatBeek. I agree.
    "Life will find a way - it always finds a way." -Jurassic Park (MOVIE/BOOK)
    USDA Zone 5a

  12. #71
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    How long after Treating does it take for a colonies pH to come back?

    Can someone install a fatbeeman/OA fumigation Youtube video for me. I'm challenged.
    Mark Berninghausen

  13. #72
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    How long after Treating does it take for a colonies pH to come back?
    What is the dosage of the treatment and how strong is the colony to start with?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #73
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Okay. Say after a proper dose of Apigaurd.
    Mark Berninghausen

  15. #74
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    I have seen that video from Michael Bush and share in his philosophy. However for a new guy, It think it is really hard to completely skip out on all the treatments with new bees. My bees are not regressed, and though I have several locally raised queens and one outside of area queen I am not sure I have the genetics to forgo treatments entirely. I also only have 4 hives this year and plan to stay at that number plus 4 nucs if I can swing it for next season.

    Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment. During that time he was regressing, etc. So it can't be that you completely ruin the hive PH long term with those treatments, or create super mites, or he would not have been able to get his bees off treatments. Am I missing something here? Just saying that I think a rash reaction of taking all treatments off the table may not work well for most people in their situations. Certain treatments buy you time and allow you the opportunity to develop better stock/regress.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Okay. Say after a proper dose of Apigaurd.
    Well (as I'm sure you know LOL) the smell of Apiguard can persist for many weeks.

    But, does it really matter is the question. With all these moulds, 30 kinds of mites, etc, that are supposed to get killed, well all up can't say I've noticed a negative effect on the hives from that.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  17. #76
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelosopher View Post
    I have seen that video from Michael Bush and share in his philosophy. However for a new guy, It think it is really hard to completely skip out on all the treatments with new bees. My bees are not regressed, and though I have several locally raised queens and one outside of area queen I am not sure I have the genetics to forgo treatments entirely. I also only have 4 hives this year and plan to stay at that number plus 4 nucs if I can swing it for next season.

    Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment. During that time he was regressing, etc. So it can't be that you completely ruin the hive PH long term with those treatments, or create super mites, or he would not have been able to get his bees off treatments. Am I missing something here? Just saying that I think a rash reaction of taking all treatments off the table may not work well for most people in their situations. Certain treatments buy you time and allow you the opportunity to develop better stock/regress.
    Well, if you don't start not treating you won't get to not treating very easily. Seems like you have bees that might get by w/out treatments already. All you have to do is not start treating. Regression isn't necessary to Treatment Free as far as I know. Small Cell is a side issue. Isn't it?
    Mark Berninghausen

  18. #77
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    >Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment.

    It's not so much that I used those on all the hives prior to going without treatment. I was running many experiments at the same time. After losing all my bees several times treating and not treating on large cell, I was skeptical of small cell. I was using FGMO on some of the hives to see if that was another possibility. I was using Oxalic acid, both to measure the effectiveness of other systems (FGMO and small cell) and to see the effectiveness of the Oxalic acid. I would not characterize this as a transition strategy but rather several simultaneous experiments looking for a solution to the Varroa problems I had experienced. Knowing what I know now, I could skip the FGMO and Oxalic and go straight to natural cell size. But at the time small cell was just one of several experiments for which I did not know the long term outcome yet.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #78
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Well, if you don't start not treating you won't get to not treating very easily. Seems like you have bees that might get by w/out treatments already. All you have to do is not start treating. Regression isn't necessary to Treatment Free as far as I know. Small Cell is a side issue. Isn't it?
    True, but I won't get there if my bees die either If your small cell treatment frees rob out a hive that has varroa, I assume they can still get enough infestation to be overcome without some help. I live in an area that has a lot of bees, including traveling bees.

    I hear you Mark, and if I can get by without treating I surely will. I have seen mite loads go up dramatically on sticky boards over the past month or so. I am still doing well below what many consider treating levels in this area, but I be won't if I get 100 mites in 24 hours how that might influence my situation. This is also my first year so it might be my pass.

    My bees are from two local beeks, one who does feral cutouts (mixed more towards carniolan) and another local guy who has an Italian based line. The second set of bees, according to the bee keeper, are not "mite resistant". We will find out if either set is

    Sure they are in my boxes so perhaps the micro ecological system Mr. Bush speaks of may be intact. But so far mite levels seem very similar (from each line) from what sticky boards tell me. And the Italian hives are much larger.

    From what I interpreted, Mr. Bush believes getting to small/natural cell size is a keystone to getting to treatment free (apologies if I missed on this one). My second year will be focused on moving to foundationless in the brood areas and working towards regression that way.

  20. #79
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Michael has said himself that he treated with fmgo and then oxalic acid for a few years prior to going without treatment.

    It's not so much that I used those on all the hives prior to going without treatment. I was running many experiments at the same time. After losing all my bees several times treating and not treating on large cell, I was skeptical of small cell. I was using FGMO on some of the hives to see if that was another possibility. I was using Oxalic acid, both to measure the effectiveness of other systems (FGMO and small cell) and to see the effectiveness of the Oxalic acid. I would not characterize this as a transition strategy but rather several simultaneous experiments looking for a solution to the Varroa problems I had experienced. Knowing what I know now, I could skip the FGMO and Oxalic and go straight to natural cell size. But at the time small cell was just one of several experiments for which I did not know the long term outcome yet.
    I misunderstood your comments on oxalic and fmgo - sorry Michael. When I read them I assumed they were a large part of what helped you knock the mites down enough to let the bees get manageable mite levels while regressing. My larger assumption is similar to what you said. In the midst of many experiments, something started working. So there may have been many things that your did correctly to ultimately get your bees off the juice.

    One thing that concerns me is that I am not sure I can maintain treatment free based on the small number of hives I have. I also don't plan to expand.

  21. #80
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    Default Re: What's everyone using for TREAMENTS??

    No need to justify yourself Beelosopher.

    Fact is, only a tiny number of US hives are treatment free, only a tiny fraction of 1%. Sounds like for you, treatment is necessary.

    Having said that, there are a growing number of small beekeepers keeping treatment free bees, and the evidence is that there is growing mite resistance in the general population. Which means at some point you could switch queens to a more mite resistant breed and you may be able to forgo treatments.

    Absolutely your choice, whether you do or don't treat your 4 hives has no effect on the grand scheme of things.

    Just one thing, if treatment free is an eventual goal, the treatment you do now, should be something non residual, ie, does not leave permanent residue in the combs. That is because there is a theory, and it may be true, that treatment residue in the combs makes it hard for bees to resist mites if they are treatment free. Apivar (not Api life var) is a good, easy to use treatment, that does not leave a permanent toxic residue.

    It is good though, seeing a new beekeeper taking it seriously enough to monitor and deal with mites if need be. So many, and I know some personally, start up with high ideals of being treatment free, and lose every bee. I sell replacement bees to them, sometimes every year to the same person. No point, they are not treating, but I'm doing it for them. And some of them leave the hobby disillusioned.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

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