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Is there a standard for nucs?

54K views 39 replies 18 participants last post by  Davidnewbeeboxbuilder 
#1 ·
Does anyone know if there is a "standard" for nucs put out by the ABF or other organization? Is there a definition?

I help many new beekeepers every year. This year the local farm store finally got rid of the horrifying person who was supplying the nucs (he took advantage of the newbees by giving them cull frames and trash bees he wanted to get rid of. Then he yelled at the customers). Unfortunately, the new supplier, although nicer, provided some of the poorest nucs I have ever seen. I recommended the folks ask for a complete refund.

These were sold as 5 frame nucs. They contained: 2 really poor frames (they should have been culled years ago), the 2 frames were not well covered in bees, the other 3 frames were new, plastic foundation, (so new they weren't even dirty yet), and a caged queen.

When I sell (or buy) a nuc, it has 5 fully drawn frames covered in bees, 2-3 frames have brood, and 2-3 have honey/pollen, the queen is fully accepted and laying.

The 5 frames should look like they were just pulled from full grown, active hive - that is why it is called a "nucleus". A nuc should need extra frames the day it arrives. Foundation can be purchased for 2 $/frame - why pay 25 dollars per frame for it in a nuc? Foundation in a nuc seems like a total rip-off.

I would like to work with the "bee guy" at the farm store (I'm not sure he even keeps bees) and help them work towards a more specific contract that spells out the condition of the nucs when they are delivered. I would like to provide them with some printable information from reliable sources, not just my word or 15 years of experience.

Does anyone know of this type of information from any of the organizations?
Thanks for the help.
 
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#30 · (Edited)
I think the big issue with these nucs that Maddox is talking about is they were considerably sub standard. We both belong to the same beekeeping association and have dealt with quesitons and comments from many frustrated new beekeepers. After reading everyones comments, I dont feel two frames of brood, some with a caged queen, some with released queen, some with dead or dying queen and three frames of foundation, these could be considerd a five frame nuc by anyone's "standard".

I agree that writing a standard may be difficult for some suppliers to swallow, but I offer that any supplier worth their salt should already have their own. It clearly sounds like most do and based on the responses here, I would say that it is pretty clear that 3 frames of foundation would not even come close.

What it looks like so far (and we are still surveying our members to determine) is that either this individual or his supplier may have spread himself too thin and supplied what could possibly have been decent nucs, but in an attempt to cover all the orders created marginal nucs and tried to pass them off as standard. Another big issue with this delivery is that there seems to be a large gap in communicaiton before, as well as after the sale. I think that communicaiton about what the supplier intends to sell as a nuc (and then making good on that promise) is crucial to having a satisfied customer. Case in point, last year I bought a "nuc" of MHs from an individual. Based on my quesitons and also his candidness in telling me what he was providing, I knew going in that I was basically buying a package of bees that had been released into a nuc box ten days prior. Not exactly what I would call a nuc, howerver, I was OK with it because I knew waht I was getting and I wanted it for several reasons other than it being a "true nuc" Having said that, it was by far the best hive I had at the end of the summer and overwinterd incredibly well. I was actually able to split it on March 5th (probalby could have split it a week sooner). Now we did have a mild winter, but even with that most people were not splitting until late March here in SW Missouri.

Cleo makes some excellent points and again seems to hover around good and also timely communicaiton and also not delivering the product until it is ready. Sure wish I could come and see you at Kelly's Summer Field Day tomorrow. I know that your insights in swarm harvesting, making splits and hive management would be invaluable to learn! Maybe we can get you to come and speak at one of our clubs meetings sometime in the future.

In short, I think that communication goes a long way in selling any product especailly with someone new to something. Not, just from a vendor stand point either, as Daniel Y points out, it also requires the purchaser asking the right quesitons and that is also something we intend to address in our beekeeping classes this fall and next spring.

Jeff
www.ozarkshoney.com
www.ozarksbeekeepers.org
 
#31 ·
On the issue of actually writing and setting a standard. I am all for that. I don't agree that what the suppliers think of it necessarily need be part of the issue. Not really any more than a contractor is consulted as to what UBC (Uniform Building Code) will be. It is what they are required to meet not something they agree would be good enough. In the case of nucs no supplier would be required to meet any standard. Btu it would serve to support claims that what was provided does or does not meet the standard. So if I buy a nuc from Joe and it does not meet the standard I have some grounds and support when I call up Joe and tell him I don't think I got what I paid for. The details can then be worked out with both parties having a common description as to what a nuc is. If Joe says he does not care about what any standard says I can then decide if I will remain a customer. But I am not at the mercy of every individual supplier telling me what they think a nuc is.

Suppliers as a whole may reject any standard as any sort of authority. Which seems to be exactly what they are doing now. Basically it is a nuc because the supplier said it was. and nobody can really say otherwise.
 
#32 ·
Setting a standard across the nuc selling industry is problematic, in my mind. Nucs are time sensitive. If they don't get sold they may swarm, if they hit a nectar flow.

So, the stanbdard for a 5 frame nuc should be that which responsible providers provide and what customers are satisfied w/ or not. An educated/experienced consumer is a good thing.
 
#33 ·
Re: f) Is there a standard for nucs?

Does anyone know if there is a "standard" for nucs put out by the ABF or other organization? Is there a definition?
The Ontario Beekeepers' Association has a "nuc buyers guide".

The Ontario Bee Breeders Association attempted to standardize the definition of a nuc some years ago and came up with the following criteria for a 4 frame nuc:
- Queen bee
- 2 frames of mostly capped brood with adhering bees
- 1 frame of feed with adhering bees
- 1 frame of foundation
- A few shakes of extra frames of bees to fill the box so it is bubbling with bees.

The rest is here
http://www.ontariobee.com/index.php?action=display&cat=19&doc=Are_You_Buying_Nucs.pdf
 
#34 ·
Re: f) Is there a standard for nucs?

You guys are making me feel a little guilty. I sell just a few nucs every year. They are made off of swarm cells off my hives, which are all feral caught, and never medicated (at least not in my yard - I know there is some debate on "feral" - but I can say I don't have a single hive that has what looks like straight run Italians) I've been selling nucs this year with 3-4 frames fully drawn. I wouldn't say they were cull frames, but since I have a mix of plastic and wood, I give the nuc boxes the best frame content available - good mix of pollen and honey as well as capped brood. We had a very mild winter, but every nuc I sold last year made it through the winter with no chemicals. I have talked with almost all my former customers and they are all thrilled. They don't know it, but if I ever had someone complain, I have a guarantee policy that I'm not even going to share with you guys)

Anyway, the nuc boxes are painted plywood this year, and I suggest customers keep the empty box inside this year, and hang them in a tree as a swarm trap next spring. That's what they were originally built for, but then I got too busy to put them out as traps.

So, even though I don't think I meet the requirement for a ful 5 frames, so far, every hive has been a complete success, and I offer free consultation over the phone for as long as the customer remembers my number. I usually follow up by email with tips on feeding, how to put them in the box, and most times I give them a hands on lesson when they come into my beeyard (the 2 this weekend we went in, me and the customer, no gloves or veils into hives and I explained how to look for eggs and brood and queen cells), and I send them links to the closest beekeeping group to where they live (we're fortunate to have about 5 within 25 mile radius.

A guy that I sold to last year has become a great friend, and I have a few repeat customers. So, I guess I trade mentoring for the extra 2 frames. When I do a cutout or trapout, I leave the customer with a bottle of honey as well, even though they pay me for the job. There is something about "free" that really wows people - even if they paid hundreds of dollars for the service.

Next year, I may do some early queen breeding, and make some packed out nucs. It's getting late this year, but people still want nucs because a breeder near here backed out at the last minute, so people are sitting with empty hive bodies they purchased and painted and have no bees. I'm apprehensive about selling anything this late in the year though, but I feel sorry for these folks, but I don't want them to have a bad experience. I have a couple new hives I started for myself (results of some trapouts or swarms) that I could pack into a 5 frame, but even then, it seems late. Swarms draw out good, but the queens are not 1st year queens.

I've even gone so far as to hand my customers an entrance feeder and a pollen patty on the way out the door just to make sure that they're successful.

I'd rather sell service than just drop a pallet of nucs off. My ROI is probably not as good, but I just enjoy the hobby so much more doing it this way. I'm not running a business, I'm running a hobby I enjoy, and meeting people - who I get to see later show up to the meetings. And, if they're lousy beekeepers, they end up having their hives swarm, which ends up being a swarm call or a cutout for me next year.

My 2 cents.

Rob.
www.mongrelbees.com
 
#35 ·
I sell 4 or 5 frame nucs.

4 or 5 frames of brood with bees covering the frames. If need, additional bees are shook into the nuc. No frames are older than 2-3 years of age.
The queen is shown to the customer as I transfer the frames into the customers hive body.
No frame exchange.
No foundation.
No honey frames.
Cash or certified funds upon delivery.
 
#36 ·
Re: f) Is there a standard for nucs?

They come from Louisiana. Bordelon Apiaries , Lafayette La. I get Minnesota Hygenic.

I have had very good luck with them.

I also buy Italians from Kelly Bee Company when they start selling queens in April. I keep hoping someone in the local area will start producing good queens. There are some trying. I would certainly use them.


cchoganjr
 
#37 ·
Some one said Packages are good for beginners, and nucs are a good way for beginners to ripped off. While I agree, I will promote Nucs over packages any day.
Weather or not we have a Standard, we all should make standards for our selves as to what we expect and what we will accept. I was very pleased on the Nucs I received from Justin Cheesman. Just picking up the Nucs I could feel the weight was good. On further inspection I found brood in many stages. Honey and pollen in all the right places.
I talk to a lot of people about starting beekeeping and I recommend Nucs.
 
#38 ·
A relative of mine bought a few nucs this year off of a very reputable producer and then last minute decided add a forth hive and bought a package from me. The package has far surpassed the nucs and is in two deeps and a medium now... The three nucs do not even have two deeps drawn out yet. These are all in the same apiary in central VT. He picked up the Nucs the week before I delivered the package. While I did not see the nucs when he got them and can't comment on how good they were, given his source I suspect they were high quality.
 
#39 ·
Very interesting thread.

This is my first year with bees, my reading indicated nucs were a better bet to start with than packages....so I ordered 3.

Delivery date was a frustration --I was told 'end of May ' when I ordered but it was the third week of June before the call came -and this despite a very early season here. I appreciate some flexibility is needed but I was getting impatient. People kept asking 'have you got your bees yet?' and I would have to keep saying no. Gettting information and details was a general issue. I asked many questions but answers were sometimes vague -what type? Italians -or maybe Carniolans. Will the queens be marked -no. They were.

You guys S of the border seem to get a better deal than we do around here, where the nuc "standard" appears to be 4 frames. Mine came in rather well-used boxes which had to be returned, with an assortment of frame types, net price was $105 each. So to get a 5-frame nuc in a proper, new painted box to keep for the same price?! Looks like a great deal.

The frames in my nucs were spaced rather far apart leading to 'comb spread' which has caused some manupulation difficulties. One pair of nucs came in a double box which also created difficulties installing -but I know better next time. I have learned a lot. Each nuc has developed differently, one is lagging, but catching up. I have no other points of reference so can't really say how good they are, although they all had viable queens.

Rob
 
#40 ·
Out of seven that sell nucs 3 will shaft u one is the cheapest but u get a start for 50 bucks and its a cage queen two frames of brood and 3 of syrup and pollen and the good ones are
not ready for ten frame box they sell them faster than they can getem. But id rather take the cheap route. Oh and the poor ones get 115 a nuc and the honest ones get 100
 
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