Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by krad1964 View Post
    Honestly, he seems to be implying that there is systemic issue with Roundup and bees, not simply a problem when Roundup is sprayed directly on the bees.

    Where is the research to support what he is implying? Or am I totally missing his point about Roundup?
    There is no basis in fact for what he is implying just his theory which he advances as fact. I have another theory as well which is that Barry has submitted what can only be described as the perfect Beesource thread that is so rich in layers that there is something for everyone here. I tried my best to not get lured in but alas here I am. I am reminded of the perfect country song. You know how it goes. ......."I was drunk the day my momma got out of prison, when I went to pick her in the rain, but before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, I got run over by a damned old train".......
    Anyway this is only like about post #60 we must have a long ways to go but let's get the record for Barry.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Well I've been hearing about the dangers to bees of roundup both on the net, and from other beekeepers, but it's all been third hand opinion somebody heard from somebody else.

    So I've started a thread on roundup, to see if there's any cause for concern about the product.

    Here it is https://www.beesource.com/forums/show...257#post795257
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Has anyone on this Thread been inspected by their States' Apiary Inspector(s) and found to have AFB? How were y'all treated?
    sqkcrk; I have been inspected and found to have AFB, but it's been 15-20 years ago. In FL the inspector marks the hive "AFB" in large, red, spray painted letters, plus the date. The beekeeper is responsible for burning the hive. Since we're notified in advance of inspections and are usually there with the inspector it's not a big deal to come back that evening and move the hive to our burn area and burn it. For most of us, AFB is such a rare occurrence there is no excuse for delaying the inevitable; if you decide to delay it probably will result in other hives getting infected and possibly another beeks' hives. Many of our inspectors are, or have been, commercial beekeepers and I find the comments about inspectors "doing away with the competition" amusing, if not downright hilarious! Where and what is the competition in beekeeping?

  5. #64
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    sqkcrk that is exactly what I am saying only hives that look infected are tested. I am asking if anyone has ever had a number of apparently unaffected hives tested to see if the test is so sensitive that it can be found in any hive. apparently according to old timer they do that where he is but what about here in the states.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    I don't know how one would test a hive for the presence of AFB other than sampling honey and detecting spore presence. Maybe there would be some way to swab the surface of the woodenware, but I doubt that anyone does that or that the technique is perfected and used.

    Oldtimer, can you clear this up? How are otherwise undectectable hives tested for AFB? Why would one go to that extraordinary level of detection? Not that I believe anyone does.
    Mark Berninghausen

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    I am somewhat familiar with this case, I know the bee inspector and have an understanding of Terry ingram and some facts that happened that day and about his past issues. For one he has been selling his equipment to new beekeepers from classes he has been teaching. (duh). Secondly he uses his experience to bully anyone else that disagrees with him, he was unable to bully the inspector which is part of the reason he is crying about it. Third he was given MANY notices including notification that the inspector was coming. The Inspector always calls first, and really makes an attempt to contact people first. She is very flexible and willing to change her schedule so she can meet with the beekeeper and inspect the bees together.
    Her personal hives she does not treat with chemicals, she takes and organic approach. With wearing the inspector hat she does not recommend anything, just answers questions and informs the beekeeper what chemicals can't be used during honey flow (the chemicals are a state regulation not hers). The terry you see in the video he wants you to believe he is the victim, however the people he has sold equipment to are very happy to see this happen (not a lynch mob happy, just a thank god this will help save bees happy). The Raines poster above has a better handle on who terry is because he also is from the local area. The numbers he quotes as to his honey production are awfully high if his hives have been getting hit from crop sprayers for me to believe, not to mention previous inspectors have sent samples in when he has complained before (they found the AFB then and tried to take steps...) and the tests were negative.
    His so called research has, to my knowledge, not been validated in any way shape or form by any kind of scientists, hasn't been documented, and is most likely his opinion. But since he has so much "experience" his word is law... The problem I have with this is that in order to be considered research in my opinion is that results need to be written down, verified, and one ought to be able to replicate the results. So his research is the word of terry and should be taken with a grain of salt. Every beekeeper has their method, and changes those methods to try and breed better queens or increase honey production. We all have our own little experiments to help the bees thats part of the fun and the challenge off beekeeping.
    And just to clarify my position on this I have no real stake in what goes on. No personal grudge against terry other than he is hurting the bees more than helping, and crying victim when things don't go his way. I ignore his experience because I want to develop my own experience and he can and is a bit over bearing. The bee inspector is a little annoying due to her enthusiasm when it comes to bees. She does not have personal grudges and does not compete with other apiaries. If anything she helps other beekeepers suggesting ways and events where they can bring their honey to market so they can sell and better maintain their bees, and beekeeping hobby. Her advise is not to compare the quality of honey that is made by local bees to the price of the honey you find in walmart. The funny thing about this is that she doesn't sell her honey so much as she demonstrates the different flavors of honey and emphasizes the importance of bees. If anything she promotes the cause and advises anyone and every one to buy local honey (doesn't matter whose honey) because it helps local beekeepers and helps the propagation of bees in general, which is why she does what she does. Again her enthusiasm is what drives her, and at times drives me crazy.
    I do take offense to the speculation about her motives and any conspiracy that is going on. I would also like anyone else in the area to speak up if they have had their hives burned, or were treated badly by this inspector or the state. I know Steve Chard the boss as well, and he also has no ill motivations to beekeepers. He tries and succeeds most of the time to follow the proper steps in dealing with people like terry, Sadly this issue has gotten out of hand, but he did not act responsibly, instead he started crying foul long after the fact playing victim to anyone who would listen. Thus stirring up a big mess with his one-sided story.

    Sorry for the novel.....
    Last edited by crash2usaf; 05-11-2012 at 07:07 PM. Reason: needed to remake a point

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Still would like answers to a couple of questions. Why were the hive removed rather than burned at the site. Is there a good paper trail showing that they were infected and were destroyed?
    Buzz Abbott
    USDA zone 10b, Western Garden zone 24 (75 ft elev. n34.0w118.47)

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by buzz abbott View Post
    Still would like answers to a couple of questions. Why were the hive removed rather than burned at the site. Is there a good paper trail showing that they were infected and were destroyed?

    Yes there is a paper trail (for liability reasons due to what happened), and the bees were removed because there is some kinda goofy regulation that dictates where hives are burned
    Last edited by crash2usaf; 05-11-2012 at 10:24 AM. Reason: answering question better

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I don't know how one would test a hive for the presence of AFB other than sampling honey and detecting spore presence. Maybe there would be some way to swab the surface of the woodenware, but I doubt that anyone does that or that the technique is perfected and used.

    Oldtimer, can you clear this up? How are otherwise undectectable hives tested for AFB? Why would one go to that extraordinary level of detection? Not that I believe anyone does.
    I believe what happens is that if the foul brood is really obvious they take a sample of the actual brood not the honey or the equipment. Since the AFB affects the brood not the honey... Do a google on it to see the procedures.... No way can they test every hive they inspect that would bankrupt Illinois OH WAIT we are already bankrupt... If Im not mistaken inspectors are looking for the overall health of the hives, watching out for new trends or disease outbreaks, and very importantly checking out the hives getting imported/exported so that these diseases don't spread.... I've been googling this stuff, and Ive had my hives inspected several times and asked "whats the point?" I think they swab it or cut a little chunk of suspected brood out... That dude who was an inspector in NY had good insight.

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    crash2usaf
    thanks for what they call "now for the rest of the story". many pieces of the story are starting to make sense. part of the problem may be lawyers and a court is involved. the state kind of has their hands tied. Im sure the states lawyer told them to say nothing so they cannot defend there actions. thanks for the background info. there were a lot of peope really getting ahead of themselves.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by beeware10 View Post
    crash2usaf
    thanks for what they call "now for the rest of the story". many pieces of the story are starting to make sense. part of the problem may be lawyers and a court is involved. the state kind of has their hands tied. Im sure the states lawyer told them to say nothing so they cannot defend there actions. thanks for the background info. there were a lot of peope really getting ahead of themselves.
    Well lets just say I'm sooo glad they did what they did AFB is a nasty disease...

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Just to answer that previous question directed to me, for random sampling of hives for AFB, samples of adult bees are taken, a jar of around 200 bees. Don't know just what happens to them in the lab but by whatever means, the end result is a spore count. Quite a lot of hives will have some AFB spores but it will be below the threshold needed to be able to kill a larva and start a symptomatic case of AFB in the hive.
    For actual symptomatic cases of AFB we take a sample of the actual dead larva, ie, the brown gooey stuff.

    I'll also say Crash2usaf, that what you describe kind of rang a bell with me, we have people exactly like that over here. Would like to have a rant and say more but I can't. However I do believe there is a personality type that exists, similar to what you describe, there are several of them here and no doubt they occur everywhere. One of the giveaways, is that they know everything, nobody else knows anything, and they've had recurring AFB issues for years but believe they have a unique knowledge of the subject and will not follow standard procedures.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by crash2usaf View Post
    I believe what happens is that if the foul brood is really obvious they take a sample of the actual brood not the honey or the equipment. Since the AFB affects the brood not the honey... Do a google on it to see the procedures....

    That dude who was an inspector in NY had good insight.
    crash, I know how to inspect a hive for AFB. I did it for 20 years. I think "That dude" you refer to is me. What I read and asked about was about how to detect AFB when it is not visually detectable. Maybe I misread something.

    Oldtimer, thanks for the explanation. I have never heard of that method being used anywhere in the U.S., though it could be in use somewhere. Do such tests ever result in confiscation and destruction of anyones' bees and equipment?
    Mark Berninghausen

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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Do such tests ever result in confiscation and destruction of anyones' bees and equipment?
    On their own, no. The adult bee samples are mainly used to get a "demographic" on areas with high counts.

    If samples from somebody's hives had counts high enough to be concerning, the person would be informed a proper inspection should be undertaken to see if there is a symptomatic infection.
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Thanks old timer for the better explanation of how they test for AFB.... SQ didn't mean to offend I was trying to make a point, I just don't want people to get their hackles up over bee inspections. They are there for a reason and aren't usually this dramatic.. My experience is that a good bee inspector is primarily there for the bees. They also are a handy resource to call on if you have questions as they tend to see all sorts of beekeeping techniques when they are out inspecting.

    BTW old timer I the best advise I've had while beekeeping was from this old fart who said he has been keeping bees for 45 years and every time he thinks he has something figured out and learned it all... the bees come up with something new...

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    No problem crash. I think good Apiary Inspectors are underappreciated. Kinda like the Police. Very few people appreciate them.
    Mark Berninghausen

  18. #77
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    From what people have presented in the roundup thread, it looks like roundup is fairly benign in regards to bees. The subject of this thread has claimed his bees have been being killed by roundup and chilled brood. Seems more likely it's something else killing them but he just thinks it's roundup and chilled brood.

    Also the claim the inspector has wiped out the line of roundup resistant bees he's spent years breeding, since nobody elses bees appear to have problems with roundup I'm wondering on what the claim is based his bees are a line of roundup resistant ones he's spent years breeding. How did he go about breeding them, what was the breeding program, what were his benchmarks to measure improvement?
    "Every viewpoint, is a view from a point." - Solomon Parker

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    First of all I have no opinion on what the state may or may not have done because we have only heard one side of the story and some anecdotal information from the other side. But on the issue of roundup resistant bees it seems like if he had the roundup resistant bees he claims his numbers wouldnt have fallen from 120 hives down to 3 and and he wouldnt have been dependent on packages and nucs from someone else to recover. I guess the crux of his argument is that the one live hive they destroyed was the magic hive that was going to be his salvation. That kind of sounds like a reach to me. Of course this is all predicated on his assertion that it was roundup that killed them in the first place and that these agents of the state of Illinois simply didnt know the difference between AFB and chilled brood and that their presumptive testing was also flawed. As distasteful as I find it to hear a story about the state destroying someones hives, in my mind Mr. Ingram's story just dosent sound terribly believable.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    The thing about him is that if you attended the association meetings his story changes all the time... What troubles me most is that he won't listen to anyone with less than 58 years of experience lol

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Terrence Ingram - 11 Hives Destroyed by the IDofA

    Quote Originally Posted by crash2usaf View Post
    and the bees were removed because there is some kinda goofy regulation that dictates where hives are burned

    What regulation is that? The only reg I can find on the Illinois site is about burning bees, comb, brood and honey...and equipment can be possibly be salvaged. I would be very concerned about tainted hives traveling the state, which could possibly lead to more contamination.

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