Splitting and not moving new hive - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Palm Bay, FL, USA
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Yes Jim; but moving splits is easy for you and me with plenty of other locations, not an option for some others as stated above. Just trying to dispell the notion that they have to be moved away from the yard to work well.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #23
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.
    Are you building a mud pie?
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  5. #24
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    You looking for a piece?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #25
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    Aug 2005
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    Fort Wayne, IN
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Thinking of doing splits and taking the old queen and frames of capped brood into the nuc and leaving the old strong hive to raise the new queen. Basically creating a swarm. This should give the old hive a broodless break to reduce mite load and allow the girls to concentrate on collecting nectar.

  7. #26
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.
    Yeah I guess that was kind of vague. In a full sized 10 frame deep box we like to have 3 frames of brood with at least that much bee cover, preferably 4 frames of bees. Smaller sized boxes can do well made up a bit smaller, a 4 or 5 frame nuc box is probably fine with just 2 frames of bees and brood. One frame of bees and brood is pretty tough to make work because there is essentially no inside frames and it takes more than half as many bees as a two frame nuc. That is when you probably need to be using a split medium or some such type of smaller box. The bees are really the key component, you can get by with one frame of brood but for the best chance of "second catch" success it should have at least some open larvae on it. Just remember that having too few bees to cover your brood is essentially throwing away your brood.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You looking for a piece?
    Only if you can figure out how to slice into 13 equal pieces...
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Not a problem ... Piece of cake, I mean pie.

    Thanks Jim.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #29
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    And the next guy will come on and say split from the weak hives. I think Michael Palmer says that.
    If you watch his video, indeed he does say that, and immediately followed by 'introduce a queen from stock that is doing well', so he is essentially using the weak hives as a supply of bees to get potentially stronger queens started, and not letting the weaker ones raise new queens on thier own after splitting. In the video, he makes the weak hive into 4 nucs, but queens the nucs from strong stock.

    This is quite different from a split where you just leave them to raise a queen after splitting.

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Following up what Jim said, we use 5 frame nucs, and give them 2 frames of capped brood with the bees on the frame and a frame of open brood which usually has a ton of nurse bees due to the nurse bees feeding the brood. Add a frame of honey and pollen and our 5th frame is normally an empty drawn comb, but could be another frame of honey/pollen. We drop in the queen cell a few hours later or wait until the next morning; don't give them time to start their own cells. You have to remember that hives are not static; the capped brood will be emerging over the next 7-8 days and boosting the population. By the time the queen mates we usually have a fairly booming nuc, but if necessary we add more capped/emerging brood to keep them strong until the new queens brood starts emerging. There's no rocket science involved in making splits, and nothing involved that a new beek can't do. BTW, other than the frame or two of honey we give them we don't feed the splits, no need to.

  12. #31
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    Auburntown, TN USA
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    I made up a couple of nucs last summer around the 1st of July. Being just a bit lazy, I set them on top of the hives they came from and turned the entrances opposite. They have done just fine.

  13. #32
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    Great Falls Montana
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Gunter I often put splits over a strong hive thats cover is the screened bottom of the double 5 frame nucs above. Works great. If there is drifting you shake in some nurse bees from a strong donor hive. When the splits are established and it warms up, I move them.

  14. #33
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    Moorescille, NC
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    Thumbs Up Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by fish_stix View Post
    Some folks/beekeepers can complicate the construction of a mud pie if given time to think about it!
    Still laughing.. Now this sure is the truth! Someone make this a "sticky" note/topic.

  15. #34
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    Indianapolis IN 46227
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Vance mentions shaking nurse bees from a strong colony to a weak nuc. If this works without causing issues, would it not follow that an entire frame of brood with bees can be transferred the same way, or for that matter, that nucs could be made from several hives by simply picking and combining brood frames with bees all at once? It would sure make nuc building easier if this works. Anyone tried this?

  16. #35
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    I have not, but I see reference to folks doing it all the time. They just warn you to watch out for accidental transfer of the queen.

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    In the video, he makes the weak hive into 4 nucs, but queens the nucs from strong stock.
    Ah, thanks. I missed that detail.
    But I am still thinking about other expert opinions that say the quality of the queen is dependant on how it is feed not on the egg she came from. If a hive was strong and you split it, it is now weak or weaker. If the resources are there (bees and food) why would it matter if the queen was raised from the weaker hive?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #37
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    I have not heard anyone say that quality of the queen is determined by feed alone and not the egg. I think most everyone acknowledges the importance of genetics as well as development and mating all factoring into the final queen quality.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    And the next guy will come on and say split from the weak hives. I think Michael Palmer says that.
    Yes, but MP's weak hives are really just his slightly less than average hives. I believe he does many of these after the flow has been going for a little bit. In both cases they are not "weak", just not high performers. Consequently there are still plenty of bees to do strong splits.

    Edit- yeah he does use his own queens, so it's a bit different than a walkaway split.
    Last edited by rkereid; 01-31-2012 at 08:18 AM.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by DonShackelford View Post
    Vance mentions shaking nurse bees from a strong colony to a weak nuc. If this works without causing issues, would it not follow that an entire frame of brood with bees can be transferred the same way, or for that matter, that nucs could be made from several hives by simply picking and combining brood frames with bees all at once? It would sure make nuc building easier if this works. Anyone tried this?
    Many beekeepers do this. I often make up my splits, nucs, and mating nucs using these methods. Nurse bees are generally accepting of being combined with other nurse bees.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Splitting and not moving new hive

    Quote Originally Posted by windfall View Post
    I think most everyone acknowledges the importance of genetics as well as development and mating all factoring into the final queen quality.
    Genetics is not so easy for the backyard beek to put his finger on. Just because a colony doesn't produce as much honey as the one next to it doesn't mean the queen has bad genetics. Maybe next year it will be a banner year. Maybe the colony has better survivability instincts. Who knows. But a queen that was not feed well will not be as healthy as one that was regardless of the genetics. Don't some people feel an emergency queen is not as good because of that?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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