Jerry Hayes/Monsanto - Page 18
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  1. #341
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Read the links...The technology just might work. And if it provides for healthier bees, less chemicals in bee hive, more honey produced and thus more money in my pocket, then I might have to go and join the "Dark Side"...TED
    ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*

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  3. #342

    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Dean, I think you’re pushing the envelope on this part of the topic. If those lawsuits were against farmers who unintentionally and inadvertently wound up with trace amounts of Monsanto’s genes in their personal seed stock, Monsanto wouldn’t stand a chance in most courts. And, if they even attempted to collect damages from those innocent farmers, the farming community would respond. I think what you’re seeing are folks who’ve intentionally placed their seed producing plots adjacent to Monsanto stock, with the express intent of collecting those genetics.
    If you want to argue about your concerns of human manipulation of seed (and honey bee) genetics…for once you won’t find me in disagreement. But, if your argument is against their protecting their intellectual property….we will be on opposite poles....as usual.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  4. #343
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    You could just choose to see things differently, couldn't you? Change your perspective from "propoganda" to "news release".

    How about settlements came to amicable resolution?
    Mark Berninghausen

  5. #344
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    good point ted. since no one else has figured out ccd or what to do about it, wouldn't that be a happy day?

    at the same time, if patented genes end up in my apiary through no deliberate action on my part, i want the laws to protect me from legal action by the patent holder.

    if the bee community is concerned about this, now is the time for the leaders in the community to be having conversations with state and u.s. legislators. if there are no laws on the books yet that address this scenario, preemptive action might help avoid the scenarios described in this thread.

  6. #345
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    If those lawsuits were against farmers who unintentionally and inadvertently wound up with trace amounts of Monsanto’s genes in their personal seed stock, Monsanto wouldn’t stand a chance in most courts.
    ...but these thousands of settlements never saw the inside of a courtroom, a judge never had anything to do with it. Do you understand what it costs to defend yourself against a lawsuit...especially if the entity suing you has 75 full time employees dedicated to investigating these violations, has really deep pockets, and as much legal firepower as necessary...even if there is no actual basis for the suit?

    I think what you’re seeing are folks who’ve intentionally placed their seed producing plots adjacent to Monsanto stock, with the express intent of collecting those genetics.
    certainly there is some of this...but even in such cases, should anyone really be responsible for what pollen blows onto their property? If it was pollution or pesticides, the onus would be on the one producing the pollution or pesticide to keep it from blowing onto the neighbors property...but since it's pollen I am responsible to keep someone elses microscopic, wind blown or bee carried property off of mine?
    ...but just as certainly, there are thousands of cases according to Monsanto...and the settlements and details are not available to either of us....so is it reasonable to assume that 100% of them are from people trying to steal from Monsanto? ...by planting non-monsanto seed on their own property? Monsanto's own words indicate that even inadvertent possession of Monsanto genes would be prosecuted _unless_ it was "trace amounts"...an ambiguous term at best....if it's possible to get trace contamination, it's probably possible to get "above trace levels" as well.

    deknow

  7. #346
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Jerry came to Florida and worked at Dadant in High Springs as a warehouse guy, I believe he was a school teacher prior to that. I was in Dadant not long ago and there was a invitation for beeks to come hear Dr. Jerry Hayes speak at some forum, I asked someone when Jerry Recv'd his PHD and they busted out laughing.

  8. #347

    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Do you understand what it costs to defend yourself against a lawsuit...especially if the entity suing you has 75 full time employees dedicated to investigating these violations, has really deep pockets, and as much legal firepower as necessary...even if there is no actual basis for the suit?
    Yeah Dean, I’m a semi-bright fellow. I understand the costs of litigation.
    In the same vein Dean, do you understand the public relations and marketing disaster it would be if Monsanto beat up a boatload of innocent farmers? Do you have any idea of the long term effect on their bottom line? I guarantee you that Monsanto does.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  9. #348
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    watch food inc and king corn ..then you'll get the idea .

  10. #349
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ..your stated opinion seems to be that the only indicator of being "sue happy" is by filing actual law suits.


    Monsanto has published it's own propaganda that establishes that there have been thousands of settlements that never made it to court.

    I think it is reasonable to assume that such settlements were made under the threat of being sued....over and over, thousands of times....if not, I'd love to hear a believable scenario.

    deknow
    First off, I will admit that I am completely ignorant of what a "seed piracy matter" is. You stated earlier that "seed piracy matters" were defined and quantified by Monsanto on their own website. And that that information has since been removed. That sounds a little suspicious right there. If you have some special knowlege in this area, please share with us the definition of a "seed piracy matter". Is it a couple of thugs visiting a farmer and breaking his kneecaps, or a letter repeating Monsanto's policy of protecting their patent rights?

    Based on that. how about this believable scenario.....

    Thousands of out of court setlements were made by farmers who knew full well that they broke the law by infringing upon Monsanto's patent rights and didnt want to go to court and loose. Out of court settlements work both ways.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  11. #350
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...but these thousands of settlements never saw the inside of a courtroom, a judge never had anything to do with it. Do you understand what it costs to defend yourself against a lawsuit...especially if the entity suing you has 75 full time employees dedicated to investigating these violations, has really deep pockets, and as much legal firepower as necessary...even if there is no actual basis for the suit?
    This just in......

    From Appendix II of the the document that you cited earlier:

    "Monsanto returns all pre-trial cash settlements back to rural America through the Commitment to Agricultural Scholarship Program and related youth initiatives. Over the past seven years alone the scholarship program has awarded nearly $900,000 to 650 farm youth pursuing an education and career in agriculture".

    Good for them. Allowing thieves to settle out of court so they do not have to endure the hardships of a trial. On top of that, donating the pre-settlement fees to charity!

    The more I learn about Monsanto in this thread the more I like them.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  12. #351
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Did Monsanto give any scholarships to the subsistence farmers who were forced off of public lands, and into city slums, so that RR soybeans could be planted from horizon to horizon?

    You need to get informed.

  13. #352
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    should anyone really be responsible for what pollen blows onto their property? If it was pollution or pesticides, the onus would be on the one producing the pollution or pesticide to keep it from blowing onto the neighbors property...but since it's pollen I am responsible to keep someone elses microscopic, wind blown or bee carried property off of mine?
    No, you're not. These possible scenarios are quite grandiose. I guess if you want to believe that the big corporation will come after you for this, you can think that.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #353
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    from what i gathered, the farmers targeted were those who sold seed, that ended up intentionally or not with monsanto's patented genes.

    the equivilent in the bee world would be those selling queens, packages, and/or nucs, that had the patented genes, whether brought in intentionally or not.

  15. #354
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Dean, I think you’re pushing the envelope on this part of the topic. If those lawsuits were against farmers who unintentionally and inadvertently wound up with trace amounts of Monsanto’s genes in their personal seed stock, Monsanto wouldn’t stand a chance in most courts. And, if they even attempted to collect damages from those innocent farmers, the farming community would respond. I think what you’re seeing are folks who’ve intentionally placed their seed producing plots adjacent to Monsanto stock, with the express intent of collecting those genetics.
    Furthermore if the Monsanto Haters bothered to actually study the law suits that have been filed by Monsanto, they would find out that the defendent are in flagrant violation of the use agreement. In most cases the farmer knowingly and willingly re-planated second generation seeds. In some cases seeds were even sold to neighbors. As an example I present the most famous case of all (Monsanto vs Schmeiser): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsant...._v._Schmeiser


    Here is a more recent report of a farmer "saving seeds" and infringing upon Mansanto's patent rights: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78K79O20110921


    I challenge anyone to cite a lawsuit that Monsanto actually won that is related to "genetic drift" and not out-right thievery of thier intellectual property rights.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #355
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Did Monsanto give any scholarships to the subsistence farmers who were forced off of public lands, and into city slums, so that RR soybeans could be planted from horizon to horizon?

    You need to get informed.
    Yes, I would like to get informed. Please provide evidence that supports the statement that you have made above. Especially the part about "horizon to horizon".
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  17. #356
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    >I challenge anyone to cite a lawsuit that Monsanto actually won that is related to "genetic drift" and not out-right thievery of thier intellectual property rights.

    if there are none the bee producers can sleep better tonite.

    but if the genes are delivered through feed, i wonder if monsanto will require anyone wanting to use that feed to sign a similar user agreement.

  18. #357
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    The Canadian seed piracy issue was with Percy Schmieser, in Saskatchewan.

    http://www.percyschmeiser.com/

  19. #358
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    No, you're not. These possible scenarios are quite grandiose. I guess if you want to believe that the big corporation will come after you for this, you can think that.
    ..Monsanto's position on such things is stated clearly in a letter from one of it's lawyers in response to a lawsuit from some organic growers trying to get pre-emptive protection from being sued when someone else's pollen fertilizes their crops:
    "As it has previously publicly stated, and restates here, Monsanto policy never has been, nor will be, to exercise its patent rights where trace amounts of its patented seed or traits are present in a farmer's fields as a result of inadvertent means."
    ...more than trace amounts? what is a trace amount?

    But the most important aspect to this is that Monsanto isn't saying that it is not a patent infringement to inadvertently have trace amounts....it is that they won't exercise them under these specific circumstances.

    In other kinds of intellectual property (like text), the common exceptions do not exist because permission is given by the owner, it is because there is a legal exception (ie, "fair use" allows short quotations from otherwise copyrighted words if it is short excerpts for educational purposes). What Monsanto claims to own is every marked gene in every pollen grain produced from seeds that they sell. They lay claim to any crop harvested that is fertilized by first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth...generation offspring of their seeds....blown in on the wind.

    It's not that I expect Monsanto to voluntarily relinquish any claim to anything, but it should be settled in law, and I personally think that even if done on purpose (pop a field in the middle of Monsanto country to "catch the genes"), that seeds are seeds, and if you didn't get your seeds from Monsanto and agree to their terms, you should be able to do whatever you want wrt seed saving and selling. Remember the organic farms have other problems here....if GMO pollen fertilizes their crop, it will not be organic anymore, they will not be able to maintain heirloom varieties, they will not be able to save seeds.

    After all, what is to prevent a neighbor from putting up a "No bees please, we like to reserve our nectar for the native pollinators" sign...then presenting you with a bill because your bees collected some nectar from their flower garden? Don't they own the nectar in their flowers? Don't you own the fruit on your trees? What if I trained a deer to pick your fruit and drop it on my lawn?

    SSDC (same sugar, different container)

    deknow

  20. #359
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Gord View Post
    The Canadian seed piracy issue was with Percy Schmieser, in Saskatchewan.

    http://www.percyschmeiser.com/
    Yes and in that case the court determined the following:
    • Schmeiser used Roundup to clear weeds around power poles and in ditches adjacent to a public road running beside one of his fields
    • He noticed that some of the canola which had been sprayed had survived.
    • Schmeiser then performed a test by applying Roundup to an additional 3 acres to 4 acres of the same field. He found that 60% of the canola plants survived.
    • At harvest time, Schmeiser instructed a farmhand to harvest the test field. That seed was stored separately from the rest of the harvest, and used the next year to seed approximately 1,000 acres (4 km˛) of canola.
    • He sold the pilfered seed at a profit
    The Court's ruling concluded:
    ... on the balance of probabilities, the defendants infringed a number of the claims under the plaintiffs’ Canadian patent number 1,313,830 by planting, in 1998, without leave or licence by the plaintiffs, canola fields with seed saved from the 1997 crop which seed was known, or ought to have been known by the defendants to be Roundup tolerant and when tested was found to contain the gene and cells claimed under the plaintiffs’ patent. By selling the seed harvested in 1998 the defendants further infringed the plaintiffs’ patent."

    I am no Judge Wapner, but the case seems pretty straight forward to me. The guy is a crook.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  21. #360
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    Default Re: Jerry Hayes/Monsanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Dan, you haven't heard? Monsanto bought Beesource! I'm just a front man now.
    Well, that would explain the Aruba IP address...
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

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