Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher - Page 9
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  1. #161
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    international falls, Mn
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    699

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Well I re-grafted today.
    The new grafts are definitely smaller and less meaty, -- but they still taste good
    They had drawn out 2 of the 10 celle I grafted earlier (the meaty ones) and the 2 were full of RJ and the grubs had grown a LOT in just a couple of days, I also added more bees to the cell builder and donated the grafting frame to the new nucs in the back yard . Will give these grafts a few days and see what they think of them..

    ==McBee7==

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  3. #162
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    1,850

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    I've read this thread a few times over the winter, a lot of the concepts behind using a nuc and replenishing it weekly with a frame of brood seem to 'make sense', but, the proof is always in the pudding. In years gone past, I've used a double deep with cloak board to raise a few queens. At this time of year with the early flow running hard, it gets to be a lot of work because that hive needs two honey supers, so every time I go to do something with / about cells, I have to lift heavy supers off, then put em back on when I'm done. The appeal of this system using a smaller box for me was in the reduced work. But I was skeptical about how well the bees would build and feed the cells.

    I am set up to do half a dozen queens per round, the limiting factor for me is the number of mating nucs I've got to work with. Half a dozen queens every two weeks meets my needs, and will leave me with a small surplus of queens. When I set the builder up the first time, two deep frames of capped brood, two good frames of pollen and nectar, and I shook in nurse bees off of 6 more brood frames from a total of 3 different colonies. I left them to settle for a couple hours, then grafted 15 cups on one bar and placed the cell frame into the center of the new builder. First graft of the season, light wasn't the greatest and my hands were a bit shakey, so the graft wasn't the greatest. Check 24 hours later, they had 6 cells nicely built up with jelly. I'm happy, I wanted 6 cells, I had one deep split into 4 compartments of half size frames, and two 4 frame deeps to use as mating nucs. I planted those cells when they were ready. My 'bee schedule' is to do the majority of my work on Saturday each week, so I've been adding a frame of capped brood every Saturday.

    For my second round, I started on Monday by putting in a frame of young brood just emerging from eggs to get the bees back into 'feeding' mode. I grafted the day before yesterday, on Wednesday, which will result in cells ready to transfer on Saturday the 17th, so my 'lotsa bee work' day falls on Saturday. Wednesday around noon I took out the brood frame and brushed all the bees back into the colony, then a couple hours later grafted 15 cups on one bar which went into the builder box. I went out today (Friday) and took a look to see how it turned out so far, this is what I found:-



    Twice as many cells as I am prepared to deal with, and with the exception of one, those cups are FULL of jelly. I know a lot of folks are concerned about the cell size, but, one thing I've learned by reading here and listening carefully to those with a lot more experience, a well fed queen will be a good queen. I'm far more interested in 'how much jelly in the cups' than I am in 'how big are the cells'. I have no doubt that the queens coming out of these cells will be well fed, there isn't room for more jelly in most of those cups.

    When I did the first batch, I did put syrup on for them, and some pollen supplement, I had just made up the nuc so no foragers oriented and foraging for this box. For the second round, they have lots of bees coming and going with pollen and nectar, the frames where brood is emerging are promptly getting filled with stores. I did put on a batch of supplement for this round as well, but didn't give them syrup. I'm using a really complex recipe to mix up supplement for the builder. 1 cup of sugar with 2/3 cup of warm water to make a syrup, then add bee-pro until the mix is roughly the consistency of peanut butter. It's still very wet, but wont run down the frames when I put it on top. The bees are all over it when I open the lid. I use wax paper to make a long skinny patty with that stuff that can sit on the two frames one side of the cells, and runs from end to end, so there is LOTS of feed real close to the cells.

    The first batch are in the mating nucs, should be seeing eggs there any day now. Going to be interesting to see how this turns out, so far, it's looking pretty good.

  4. #163
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Clemson, South Carolina
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    92

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Looks good so far grozzie. I just grafted another 10 today. Found one of my new queens today also.


  5. #164
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
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    6,034

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Grozzie, I am for the "cup" full of jelly at the time of capping. So far I haven't noticed any of the ones that are full be "empty" when they pupate. The ones that aren't quite full seem "low" when done, but there is still some sort of residue. As long as there is jelly left over, I don't know how they could be malnourished. Unless there's some mechanism that I'm not understanding. I need to get better at adding brood to my cell builder. Open brood in particular. After two rounds they seem to go laying worker right after the second round is capped. So I need to remedy that... I usually tear down the builder and make it into mating nucs, I've had good luck with LWer colonies taking cells or honeywater dipped virgins pretty darn well. But this year I want to have them continuously make cells for me. So I need to master keeping it strong. When I graft Thursday I might make my first foray into a queen right finisher... which in theory would help prevent the LWers. Or I might just shuffle a frame of open brood into the starter/finisher on Friday and then put another one or two in on the day they cap them.

    Good looking queen, wwfoste!

    I lost my last batch to LWers "turning back on" or something... they started cells when I checked a day after grafting. Let them be until the day I usually pull them and they were all torn down (no virgin, just LWers). So I broke them up and used the last couple cells I had. Then made up a builder and grafted last week. That opps (and not checking every couple of days) kind of set me back some. I could see wanting to run two of them "just in case".

    Anyway... here's a pic of my best batch so far this year, I think there were two misses and two "duds" in that batch:

  6. #165
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Clemson, South Carolina
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    92

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Nice batch jwcarlson. I've been rotating in a frame or two of mixed brood (mostly capped though) each week. Haven't run in to a laying worker problem yet, but I did miss a queen cell last time. Moved the new virgin to a mating nuc.

  7. #166
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    2,754

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Totally a question. grozzie2's cells look like much of the wax is recycled. Is wax aged bees a factor in cell size? Can you have too many nurse (pre wax stage) bees?

  8. #167
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    1,850

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Totally a question. grozzie2's cells look like much of the wax is recycled. Is wax aged bees a factor in cell size? Can you have too many nurse (pre wax stage) bees?
    I dont think my setup is missing any age of bee at this point. It was set up on May 22 with two frames of capped and lots of bees off of brood frames, then had capped brood added on May 28, June 3, prior to the photo above. I'm pretty sure they are making wax in there, the frame of capped I added on May 28 was a medium frame (it was convenient from a colony on the next stand), and they have drawn wax below the medium to deep depth. But even that new comb looks the color of older wax, probably because it's heavily travelled by bees headed up and down, it doesn't look like the clean new wax we see in honey supers on the other colonies in the same yard.

  9. #168
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    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Thanks grozzie2.
    I really had been thinking of it from the other direction. i have had webbing before, took that as just the bees, after seeing the pictures it dawned on me that by using the bees from new frames being drawn out I may have been the cause. Might be less webbing had I had been using old frames with young brood as a source. Method variance not a genetic variance.

  10. #169
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Overgaard,AZ
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    77

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    I set my cell builder up last saturday the 17th. not going for a big run of queens, want to try for 30 queens te leftover to the bee club here. Yep, I'm a bit late this season,
    but I want these ladies for the 20+ nucs I built these last few weeks. Plus, I've finally gotten enough drawn combs, and have the resources going.
    When it was first populated it was overflowing with bees, seems a bit quiet, but it's full inside,

    Attachment 34030


    I went in and did a QC check and today there is nothing but closed brood.
    I'm setting the open brood in tomorrow to start the feeding response, and going to graft on the morning of the 27th.

    My goal is to requeen, and then make some nucs for next season.
    Then make bees, and queens like Michael Palmer teaches one to do in his lectures.

  11. #170
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Overgaard,AZ
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    77

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Can these cell builders be used to draw comb in the upper box without a queen?

  12. #171
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Clinton, Iowa
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    6,034

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by MimbresBees View Post
    Can these cell builders be used to draw comb in the upper box without a queen?
    I have never had luck getting bees to draw any appreciable comb without a queen. That's just my personal experience. If they start drawing comb off of the cells, it is my experience that they have laying workers.

  13. #172
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    Sep 2016
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    Overgaard,AZ
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    thanks jw, that's what I thought about the queen.

  14. #173
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by MimbresBees View Post
    thanks jw, that's what I thought about the queen.
    I even use it as a gauge in mating nucs. When I see white comb being drawn 95% of the time they've got their queen back.

  15. #174
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    Sep 2016
    Location
    Overgaard,AZ
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    What's the reasoning for leaving the cb queenless for 10 days?
    Why do we do it this way for the nuc cb?
    Tying to see the logic to this methods length of time for queenlessness.
    I see many others using their cb's within 48hrs or less.

    I'm def following the method we have here, just would like a little clarification.
    Not finding any answers for this online here or other places.

  16. #175

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by MimbresBees View Post
    What's the reasoning for leaving the cb queenless for 10 days?
    Why do we do it this way for the nuc cb?
    Tying to see the logic to this methods length of time for queenlessness.
    I see many others using their cb's within 48hrs or less.
    Does someone really say that somewhere?
    You are absolutely right, there is no what so ever reason to leave the cell builder queenless for 10 days.


    All the needed nursing bees have changed into older bees in 10 days.

  17. #176
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    All the needed nursing bees have changed into older bees in 10 days.
    If you are not adding the weekly frame of capped brood, then yes, you will end up without the required nurse bees. But if you add the frame of capped / emerging once a week, you will have the required nurse bees constantly being added.

  18. #177
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    Sep 2016
    Location
    Overgaard,AZ
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    this sucks, I didn't check the cb last week, and I have a laying queen inside my cb I just found out.
    friggin tight layer but wtf...she's daughter of a Michael Palmer queen.
    Guess I'll try again making another cb starting tomorrow.
    I thought I searched for a queen better, then not seeing any swarm cells etc

    I guess I have a brood factory now, this bomb is gonna bust...
    I guess I'll move a frame to my slow hive

  19. #178

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by MimbresBees View Post
    this sucks, I didn't check the cb last week, and I have a laying queen inside my cb I just found out.
    friggin tight layer but wtf...she's daughter of a Michael Palmer queen.
    Another disadvantage of leaving CB queenless for 10 days is that new queens may emerge in that time.

  20. #179
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    I have left the cell builder without a queen for the 10 days after grafting and then used the frames and bees to make the mating nucs. There was no problem with the brood being fed when the new queen started to lay, the older bee's brood food glans were able to produce the food that was needed.
    42 + years - 24 colonies - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  21. #180
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
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    Jospehine County, Oregon
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    261

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    maybe you placed a queen inside when making the cell builder.
    Last edited by Arbol; 06-28-2017 at 09:22 AM.

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