Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher - Page 10
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  1. #181

    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    I have left the cell builder without a queen for the 10 days after grafting and then used the frames and bees to make the mating nucs
    Wow wow wow, we are now talking, or at least I understood so, how long CB should be queenless before grafting.


    After grafting it is minimum 5 days queenless, if the cells are covered.
    If not 10 days, then they are removed from CB to mating nucs.

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  3. #182
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    Well,now... I have 5-frame boxes and 10-frame boxes and a couple of 8-framers. I could mimic a 6-frame box with fillers in either 8- or 10-framers, but is there anyone who knows that using an 8-frame box is beyond some production boundary? Should I expect 6- and 8-frame queenless boxes to be equivalent in QC generation? I'll probably try this fairly soon.

    Michael
    I went ahead and built 2 Cell Builder nucleus boxes just specifically for this system.

    They are 12" tall, and the bottom 3 inches are covered with window screen for ventilation. They hold 6 deep frames. I also have a 5-framer built like this. Included in the design are a feeder inner cover with 1/2 inch hardware cloth over holes for pollen substitute patties and a jar top outer cover for 1:1 liquid feed.

    Two neat things about the 6-frame, ventilated Cell Builder boxes is that they hold 20% more 5- to 10-day-old nurse bees than the 5-framer does, and it holds PLENTY of food.

    By keeping to a limit of 16 queen cells, the 6-frame CB has plenty of labor force to make large, healthy queen cells. It is stuffed so full of nurse bees that it has to be ventilated.

    BTW, 8- and 10-frame boxes are NOT beyond production capacity of a STRONG colony. I use 10-framers when making large batches.

    Joseph Clemens and David LaFerney came up with this scaled-down version of queen rearing all season long to meet their needs, right where a lot of us are, small-time operators trying to get bigger.

  4. #183
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Maybe the original thread is missing a step??....if this is a cell starter/finisher in same box, when are the cells pulled?? You stated that Joe Clemens is putting in a new graft continuously...every 4 to 5 days but you were doing it once a week....but that can't be the case if this is also a finisher...the timing doesn't add up.....maybe I missed a step??
    Help is here to never misplace that hive tool again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqB0zcmhmQ

  5. #184
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    For anyone who is interested this thread starter is based on a broader post about my experiences as a beginner at queen rearing.

    Above is the third line of the first post; it has a hot link to an expanded explanation with pictures and a more detailed calendar.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  6. #185
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    For anyone who is interested this thread starter is based on a broader post about my experiences as a beginner at queen rearing.

    Above is the third line of the first post; it has a hot link to an expanded explanation with pictures and a more detailed calendar.
    I've read the article...my question above still stands. something isn't adding up calendar-wise for starter/finisher.
    Help is here to never misplace that hive tool again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqB0zcmhmQ

  7. #186
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Saw it yesterday , can't find it today. The only thing you are missing is the little snippet that says two nucs for 4-5 days.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  8. #187
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    4 days before you graft put a frame of hatching eggs/young open larva in the cell builder. That will insure that your nurse bees get into feeding mode by the time you add your grafts. My experience is that if I skip this step I get much smaller cells. Joseph Clemens produces nice big cells without this step, I think because he is continuously using his cell builder – so the bees stay in feeding/nurse bee mode – while I was only adding grafts to my cell builder every week or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Saw it yesterday , can't find it today. The only thing you are missing is the little snippet that says two nucs for 4-5 days.
    The above quote is where I am scratching my head...he said he didn't use his box as much as Clemens......he said he put grafts in every week or two while Clemens used it more often which is why Clemens cells were bigger......this statement did not add up......if you are using the nucs as a finisher for 10 days, then that's the minimum you can swap in grafts....


    Don't get me wrong.....I think this is a great approach....I just want to have every bit of information before even attempting this style.
    Help is here to never misplace that hive tool again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqB0zcmhmQ

  9. #188
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinWI View Post
    .if you are using the nucs as a finisher for 10 days, then that's the minimum you can swap in grafts....
    No, that is not correct. Using my own schedule as an example. we graft weekly here during queen season. Schedule goes like this. At the start, we graft on Wednesday and place cells in the builder. The following Wednesday, another graft goes into the same builder, so now two grafts a week apart are in there. On Saturday, the first set of cells is removed and spotted into mating nucs. The builder will only ever have one set of open cells that need feeding as a batch placed on Wednesday are due for capping the following Monday. Thru the season I graft on Wednesday, place cells into mating nucs on Saturday. From Wednesday thru Saturday there are always 2 sets of grafts in my builder arrangment.

    In my own case, I'm only doing 1 bar of cells for each round, so I can actually have both graft sets in the same cell frame. But others doing larger quantities along this line will have two full cell frames in the builder at the same time.

  10. #189
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    No, that is not correct. Using my own schedule as an example. we graft weekly here during queen season. Schedule goes like this. At the start, we graft on Wednesday and place cells in the builder. The following Wednesday, another graft goes into the same builder, so now two grafts a week apart are in there. On Saturday, the first set of cells is removed and spotted into mating nucs. The builder will only ever have one set of open cells that need feeding as a batch placed on Wednesday are due for capping the following Monday. Thru the season I graft on Wednesday, place cells into mating nucs on Saturday. From Wednesday thru Saturday there are always 2 sets of grafts in my builder arrangment.

    In my own case, I'm only doing 1 bar of cells for each round, so I can actually have both graft sets in the same cell frame. But others doing larger quantities along this line will have two full cell frames in the builder at the same time.
    Well, if that how this works is one bar (on a single grafting frame) is put in week 1 and 2nd bar week 2 (or thereabouts) then that would certainly keep this starter/finisher colony chugging right along. That part was NOT described in either the original post nor the article, and that is what I was trying to drill down upon. Thank you....The way the 5 frame nuc was described, there is no room for two grafting frames....For a full size or 6 frame nuc? yes.
    Last edited by KevinWI; 01-29-2019 at 10:30 AM.
    Help is here to never misplace that hive tool again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqB0zcmhmQ

  11. #190
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Like that twist. Certainly suits the findings that royal jelly varies by day. Got them feeding queen cells , keep them feeding queen cells.
    It is not true that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.
    They can learn them, they just can't do them.

  12. #191
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    No, that is not correct. Using my own schedule as an example. we graft weekly here during queen season. Schedule goes like this. At the start, we graft on Wednesday and place cells in the builder. The following Wednesday, another graft goes into the same builder, so now two grafts a week apart are in there. On Saturday, the first set of cells is removed and spotted into mating nucs. The builder will only ever have one set of open cells that need feeding as a batch placed on Wednesday are due for capping the following Monday. Thru the season I graft on Wednesday, place cells into mating nucs on Saturday. From Wednesday thru Saturday there are always 2 sets of grafts in my builder arrangment.

    In my own case, I'm only doing 1 bar of cells for each round, so I can actually have both graft sets in the same cell frame. But others doing larger quantities along this line will have two full cell frames in the builder at the same time.
    Gold nugget... Many thanks. Does make me wonder though if you place a bar of grafted cells always into the top spot in the frame or does it matter?
    Working to propagate my survivors and staying treatment free USDA Zone 7b

  13. #192
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Got my first package 2 months ago and now have a few queen cells in a CB (via Nicot and emergency cells). It is June 20 and my colony seems to be doing well. What are your thoughts on expanding my bee empire? I was thinking of starting 2 nucs (5 frame deeps) in addition to the 10 frame original. Is that asking to much of the bees? Too close to winter (California coast, so relatively mild)?

    Also, does size matter? Your queens’ genes are the same whether she is large or small. Has it been shown that smaller QCs make poorer layers or are we speculating?

    Thanks all for your contributions!

  14. #193
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    Default

    Well after reading from beginning to end I tried this method after 2 attempts at a closed cell starter produced 2 cell starts from about 60 grafts.

    Happy to say checked today and I'm at least 75% started now. I think the practice of grafting has helped me improve as well and finding a more flexible chinese tool ( 1 out of 10) on amazon. My tool from mannlake was just digging into cell bottoms too much, and im struggling with the jzbz tool.

    Thanks so far.

  15. #194
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    I used a piece of fine grit sandpaper to thin the reed on my Chinese grafting tool. Much more flexible now. Wrecked the first one by sanding it too much, so check every couple of swipes.
    Thankfully, the bees are smarter than I am. They are doing well, in spite of my efforts to help them.

  16. #195
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    That's a fine idea...I will have to give that a try when I get off patrol tomorrow afternoon. Good thing I didnt throw them all out.

    I went ahead and purchased new ones from the chinese seller on amazon that has all the high reviews but they average at least a month for delivery.

  17. #196
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    In my own case, I'm only doing 1 bar of cells for each round, so I can actually have both graft sets in the same cell frame. But others doing larger quantities along this line will have two full cell frames in the builder at the same time.
    Quite right - or even more than two ...

    Laidlaw writes (about a guy who operated a 3-day cycle):
    The makeup of one of his cell builders after a new frame of cells has been given could be something like this: at the side of the hive next to the entrance through the wall is the feeder, then (1) a comb of honey and pollen, (2) honey and emerging brood, (3) brood (sealed), (4) pollen, (5) new graft, (6) hatching brood, (7) queen cells three days old, (8) older unsealed brood, (9) queen cells six days old, (10) sealed brood, (11) queen cells nine days old, the remaining frames are filled with brood and honey.
    Queen Rearing - Laidlaw & Eckert, p.79
    The guy being referred to was using several (!) 15-frame boxes inside a custom-made building ...
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  18. #197
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Just sticking my oar in on this thread to say a few things - firstly, imo it's one of the most valuable threads on the forum and I'm surprised that it hasn't yet been made a 'sticky'.

    Secondly, for anyone who is rubbish at grafting (like me) and only needs a few queen-cells from time to time - it's not compulsory to donate larvae in the form of grafts - other methods can be used: such as inserting whole frames of suitable larva. Then, after you've cut the q/cells out, leave that frame in place to provide additional 'top-up' nurse bees.
    Should you want to try the Hopkins method, then arrange for that frame to be held horizontally above the rest. Miller method, Ally method - they can all be used with the JC Queenless Starter-Finisher.

    Lastly, I've used this 5-frame system very successfully for some years now, but this year I've been running it within a full-sized box, and initially dummied the box down to 5 frames. Then, as demands varied over the season I've been able to enlarge the space available to 6 or even 7 frames - so I guess an 8-frame box would be optimum.
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  19. #198
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Quote Originally Posted by BomberJosh View Post
    My tool from mannlake was just digging into cell bottoms too much, and im struggling with the jzbz tool.
    Always graft from the darkest, blackest, oldest, brood comb with suitable larvae otherwise the chinese grafting tool may not 'turn the corner' at the bottom of the cell and will just penetrate the wax. You can stick such a comb into your breeder queen box 5-6 days before grafting - the bees will clean it, she'll lay it up, and you'll have a load of nice larvae - unless the bees fill it with nectar...

  20. #199
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    well im happy with this method now. checked on the cells and they are all twice as large as before and i have 22 out of 30 that are accepted and capped. Probably need to still work on my grafting i know a few were definitely my fault. 20190713_185110.jpgI did my first frame swap for some new open and capped brood today as well.

  21. #200
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    Default Re: Beginner Queen Rearing using the Joseph Clemens Starter/Finisher

    Nice looking cells, ya did good. Assuming 70-80 % mating rate.....
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