Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Did i create a monster tread?
    Jim is exactly right. That is what I started this post to hear. There is "always a better year"

    Mike
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  3. #62
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    You know what? You guys are right, there is no money in the bee business, everyone is broke and no one ever makes it, or if they do they are bound to fail sometime, except you blue bloods of course. been doing it all yer life so that's the way it's gonna be. I agree... I agree. I conceed.

    I have no skin in the game, nor do I intend to. It's only a research paper. I look at the numbers from a business standpoint, they are there, they exsist, but of course as you have all pointed out, it's a veil of lies, that have set you all up to look like it makes you money, but it doesnt.

    Jim, I never EVER set out to tell the story of the bee keeper, this ain't the tale of wyatt earp the real american cowby, this is the tale of business figuers in business class, "fresh off my HP printer" except my HP isn't HP.

    What the numbers also tell me is that the story of the bee keeper will be a tale of the past. Bee keeper numbers have been dwindiling every year, in steady decline. Honey and Pollination figuers are in a bubble and that one year when it bursts... there won't be money to be made. Not sure when it will burst, but it will. The numbers will IMPLODE the following year and the commercial bee keeping industry that makes money will cease to exsist in years after that. But if I understand all you guys that have been "doin it fer yers..." there already isn't any money in it. So have we already arrived then? It seems so according to Jim Lyon, Ryan, and some other folks.

    Good luck bee keepers and apicultirst, it seems I'm writing to your graves. You have all "Collapsed" it seems. Sorry for your loss. s

  4. #63
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Let me interject something into this. I am assuming since you are in college that you are just a little bit older than me (im 17). Most of these guys could be my dad or grandpa. Listen to your elders. They have walked this world much longer than you and me and they know that not everything happens on the books. It happens out in the bee yard.

    mike
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  5. #64
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Beekeeping is different in every location, so when you say this fellow in Washington has a row of Vettes, how does that relate to me?

    Yes, in any industry, there will be a wide variance in profitabilty,and some will be highly successfull, but not when a third party is producing a fraudulant product at below cost, your bell curve gets thrown out of whack.

    If this is a research paper, maybe it is time for you to do a complete job and get your hands dirty. Yes, that is a challenge, and an offering.


    Roland Diehnelt
    Linden Apiary, Est. 1852
    N89 16672 Cleveland Ave,
    Menomonee Falls, WIs.
    262 255-6781

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Hi again

    If you wanted to know if I make money owning bees, then please ask the question. I make more money than I ever thought possible. So do lots of other beekeepers. Most think it is well earned and are not the least bit worried about any new beekeepers flooding the market. Lots of beekeepers have enough money to survive for several years of bad markets. You basically said so yourself.

    Your right, margins in the bee business are great. High profit goes with high risk of loss. The fact that these profit margins have remained for several years is proof that smart and able business men stay away from bees or are hesitant to expand rapidly.

    Again you have the numbers correct about honey imports, re-read. Why you think a market dominated by cheap imports is ripe for a domestic honey takeover is beyond reason.

    Your interpretation of the numbers you are finding is what I take issue with. We do work together, lots. We share info. You should have seen the national convention this month in Galveston. Everything is on the table and out in the open. You are getting hassled here because you are claiming to know the end of an industry that you know just a little about. You know even less about our culture or attitude. This site is full of people helping people.

    There is no bubble here. Bubbles don't exist in a market that losses beekeepers every year. Pick one or the other. The prices are need to stay here or close to sustain the industry.

    $2,000,000 if you re-read is a rough estimate of the interest to service a loan. Not the loan amount or even a principal payment.

    have fun

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by gregstahlman View Post
    do you realize that every year we lose millions of acres of bee pasture to modern farm practices. there are places in this country that never should have been farmed in the first place, but as long as the gov. keeps subsidizing farmers they are gonna plow beatiful bee territory to plant crops that can't even support themselves.
    I know it's a bit off topic but I have to comment on the above statement. I realize different things are happening in different parts of the country so here's what's happened in WA in just my lifetime (middle age). The Kent valley used to be a farming mecca until all the farmers were pushed out by development, so they moved out. As the farmers moved out they cleared trees and scrub and transformed inhospitable areas into lush green farmland. Once accomplished the city slickers took note at how beautiful, quiet and peaceful is was and decided to move there. Except those dang farmers!!! Running their equipment at all hours of the day, creating dust and noise and OMG, what is that awful smell??? As the cities closed in the farmers starting looking elsewhere. Outlying rural communities, wanting the employment and revenue potential, started offering incentives (like no/low property taxes on properties that weren't generating taxes to begin with). The farmers realizing s decided to move their operation there. Yep, bee pasture got plowed under to accomplish that. What else were they supposed to do? I know one area in particular that was largely scrub when I was a kid. Today the area is full of agriculture of great diversity (including beekeeping). It is lush, green, beautiful and peaceful. The city slickers are starting to move there now. They're putting in subdivisions where the original farmland used to be forcing the farmers farther out. It's only a matter of time before the farmers are chased completely out of there as well. I've seen this happen not only in WA, but ID and OR as well. I can't vouch for other areas of the country.

    I understand there is great controversy on agricultural subsidies. The huge megafarms certainly get more than they deserve, IMHO, while the small family farms, like my brother who wants to pass the family dairy along to my nephew, struggle to stay alive despite increased scrutiny and regulation by college educated, city slick bureaucrats. So the farmers move and plow under more bee pasture. BUT, they stay in business and they still produce among the safest food in the world. IMO that's infinitely more desirable than the alternative, which is importing ALL our agricultural products from foreign countries. And while I don't wholly support agricultural subsidies, I believe a certain amount is necessary to offset production costs so our American Farmers can stay competitive against foreign powers who pay their workforce about the same per month as our farmers, as mandated by law, pay per hour and are forced to follow environmental regulations that countries like China spit on.

  8. #67
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    If you wanted to know if I make money owning bees, then please ask the question.
    Ryan, again, from the very begining, my research paper will be on, The US Honey Market and the effects of Chinese Honey Laundering on the US beekeeps (in the coming decade(s) (not sure if I have enough data to show beyond that, we will see) and you hit the nail on the head, Sir. "Why do you think a market dominated by cheap imports is ripe for a domestic honey takeover is beyond reason" ... the bread and butter of my report. (this thread is a side topic, really has much less to do with the report) Do you know why I think that the US Beekeeper is going to go by the wayside? Because bee keepers don't rise together, stick up for them selves (mainly cause they are too worried about other "beeks" moving in on them) and pool thier money and lobby congress to put more pressure on this problem. Chinese honey will continue to flood markets all the while you are all bickering with eachother. One day you will wake up to the news papers saying that 100K beekeepers remain in the US, ALL HOBBYISTS. Because commercial operations can't make it operating in the red because honey is NO LONGER profitable, even combined with pollination. Which you all have said happens more often then not, so we'll assume were already getting there.

    I never claimed to know the market/industry. I have only claimed to have read the PUBLISHED reports, which according to ALL of you, are all wrong. Why are they wrong Ryan? please tell me how the USDA put ALL worng info... ? I know why, because you all stick in your closets and worry about the other guy "knowing your numbers" and because the bee market is so fragmented, how can Congess protect you with all you're own self intrests? Of course you claim that you help others. So, the best thing you can do to help is to report your businesses to the USDA, volunteer to submit more reliable data (because you pointed out it's all jacked up, what they do have) Do you get my point? Of course you don't as you have already pointed out here, I am wrong, so are the reports, so are other beekeepers... everyone is wrong. No bosy knows anything and the whole industry according to you is dang near a failure.

    I first off, won't be OK, with realying even more heavily on China, after they put us in the mess we will be in with Ag, that's a ways off, but when you and your business dies, because you allowed China to CONTINUE to flood US markets with your own product, therfore driving the stake in your own hearts because you DIDNT COME TOGETHER AND SAND UP AS ONE.... "How the US Bee Keeper Was Smoked"... I think that sounds better...
    Last edited by Barry; 01-22-2011 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Excessive quoting

  9. #68
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by wabeeman View Post
    I know it's a bit off topic but I have to comment on the above statement.
    Right on! I agree, and it's somewhat off topic, but it makes sense to me because that is the consequence of my report. When our ag base goes away, so does one MAJOR piece of our soverignty and freedom as a nation. We then begin to rely on foreign countries like the BRIC countries to "help" us out and slide us a piece of bread. My point in this "debate" is that bee keeping is profitable (maybe not Millions) but comfortable for most (a few have Millions) but those few that have millions are shouldering the load when it comes to protecting thier industry. Beekeepers should band together, pool resources (not just money) and get in with farmers, you guys are symbiots. You need eachoter. And with the two industries going head first to Congress... it can have an impact. Why do you think among other GM was bailed out? Because they have the unions... it's just an idea.
    Last edited by Barry Digman; 01-22-2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Excessive quoting

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Whew! Let's remember the forum rules about quoting entire posts in our replies:

    Don't quote back entire messages in your reply. While this board allows you to "quote" (i.e. include) messages when you reply to them, very rarely do you ever need to quote the entire message that was sent to you. Just quote the relevant portion and chop out the rest. If someone includes an image in their post, do not include it in your quote.

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226194
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  11. #70
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Sorry, won't do it again, will go back and fix previous entries, thanks.

  12. #71
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Hi TSADAM13

    Please re-read my post, again. I don't claim the USDA numbers are wrong. I claim you interpret the meaning incorrectly. I also say you argue conflicting points. ie there is so much money in bees that its going to draw in big wal-mart money types and then you claim there will be no commercial beekeepers in the US in just a few years. Can it really be both?

    re-read it

    Thanks

  13. #72
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    In order to stay in this business you have to live and love it. very few commercial guys do it for the money. with the investment of a huge beekeeper it would make more sense to sell out and live off the interest. why
    beat your head against the wall. It's because they love the job. years ago we had 1200 hives,tractor trailer,went to fla,hired help,etc. now I run 200-350 hives,work alone and make more money. the more hives you run the profit per hive decreases. the best money is in this class. the huge guys work on cash flow and the smaller guys work for what they can keep in thier pocket. It is easy on paper to make a million dollar year.

  14. #73
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Do you know why I think that the US Beekeeper is going to go by the wayside? Because bee keepers don't rise together, stick up for them selves (mainly cause they are too worried about other "beeks" moving in on them) and pool thier money and lobby congress to put more pressure on this problem.

    The fact that you think Congress can fix beekeeping problems shows just how distorted your reality is. Congress has no ability to impact most of the problems in beekeeping. The few things they could affect, Congress is too corrupt or ignorant to actually do.

    Just for curiousity sake, how many of us will it take to stick together, and how much money will it require to get Congress to fix these things?
    1) Ban varroa from existence.
    2) Ban hives from collapsing from CCD.
    3) Order all land to become prime bee pasture, capable of producing 300+ pound crops.
    4) Ban hives from being dinks.
    5) Ban dud queens.
    6) Require optimal weather for all bee activities.
    7) and on and on...

    I also hate to state the obvious that your idea of 'sticking together' is known as collusion and is illegal under various anti-trust laws.

  15. #74
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Country Boy,
    I think you missed my point about Congress, it has nothing to do with the health and protection of your bees. You are correct, congress cannot help with that. They could present more funds for research, and what not but that's another story and problem.

    It has everything to do with one half, or in some operations 1/3 or 1/4 of your revenue. Honey. When illegal honey is traded in America, it presents problems for you. When unscrupulous brokers, with moral ineptitude take Chinese honey and re-sell it, it hurts you.

    It hurts your profits, it hurts your accounts, your ability to put your kids through school. When I say "rise together and pool your resources" you can do that to hire lobbyists to go to congress and put pressure on them to draft tougher regulation on customs and declerations for foreign imports.

    You don't think it can happen? How many laws a year a passed by congress? How many of those laws are started in the minds of people like your self, or groups or industry? Don't you think the Oil Industry has lobbyists? Is that called collusion? No, you need to relook up that defintion, Sir.

    It's called pooling money to lobby. Richard Adee seems to be the only one looking out for this problem... I have read on here that you beeks say why should I put forth money when he's doing it?

    He makes great money, more then any single one of you can, and he appears to be shouldering the load. Why do you think he is doing that? Because he's big enough to see the real problems... I don't care if you make it man with your 200 hives, it won't hurt me a bit. But if the US bee keeper goes away, so does our freedom.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    The economics of beekeeping prevent alot of what you suggest, I believe. We did have a Lobbyist in Washington. I forget his name right now, but he was a well known person in the Bee Industry and served us for many years until his death.

    Now we have Dave Hackenburg and some others who know how to presaent our cause to Congress and who have been successaful at time, getting funding for reasearch. The Amercian Beekeeping Federation and the American Honey Producers Association are the two National organizations that bring beekeepers together. Unfortunately they can't merge w/ each other. One split off from the other a number of years ago. Which makes speaking w/ one voice difficult.
    Mark Berninghausen

  17. #76
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Countryboy View Post
    Congress has no ability to impact most of the problems in beekeeping. The few things they could affect, Congress is too corrupt or ignorant to actually do.
    Of course Congress can't legislate away the health problems we have with our bees. One thing they did to help the beekeeping industry was to stop cheap Chinese honey from depressing our prices. You probably remember the price of honey a number of years ago was in the mid $.50 range. Packers were buying cheap Chinese and if we wanted a market we had to take what they gave us.

    Then the Chloramphenocol contamination problem in Chinese honey came to light. Imports of Chinese honey stopped world wide..stopped in this country by our Gov't...and the price we received rose to $1.50.

    Prices fell again soon after when the Chinese began dumping product on our market, but rose again to $1.50+ when their loophole scheme was stopped....by Congress.

  18. #77
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    Reminder Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    The last thing I want is the Government to get into bees. The last time then got into honey it cost my area 4 big comm. beekeepers, and it took 8 years to fix that mess. I thing research is great and I think putting money into that is fine, but throwing money at lobbiest not the greatest idea.

  19. #78
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    I really wish you had drove down to Galveston and heard all this in person,

    Michael j Coursey Google his name, you'll find his law firm.

    Mike has been the guy who handles the anti dumping cases in the past. When lots and lots of beekeepers donated lots of money. Many beeks donate every year. Some are forced to give because of where they sell their honey. Mike is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. Mr. Adee is very generous with his money but even more so with his time. He is not the only one. Lots of work is done by many every year.

    The ABF has people they fund full time to keep beeks interest represented in in D.C. Show up to a ABF meeting and talk to Francis Boyd about his work in D.C. lobbying for beeks. Google Francis Boyd American Beekeeping Federation, see what pops up.

    You wont find it on the web how many leaders, supported by money from the rank and file, spend untold time and money going to D.C. and state houses to fix problems. Like pesticide use and standard of identity for honey.

    I assume you know this industry has survived really cheap (less that the $.52 your worried about) chinese honey dumping several times.

    Maybe I'll buy you a plane ticket to one of the conventions next year. You don't need to trust my word. Come and get a real feel for what is going on.

    ryan

  20. #79
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    you can do that to hire lobbyists to go to congress and put pressure on them to draft tougher regulation on customs and declerations for foreign imports.

    You don't think it can happen?


    I think it is known as throwing good money after bad.

    How many laws a year a passed by congress? How many of those laws are started in the minds of people like your self, or groups or industry?

    How many of those laws have any real value? The bulk of the new laws cater to special interest groups (aka individuals, groups, or corporations), at the expense of hurting everyone else. That's not what I want.

    He makes great money, more then any single one of you can,

    Oh really? How much does he make? How much can anyone else? Or are you saying that he makes more than anyone else can because he is paying lobbyists? (So much for a free market.)

    But if the US bee keeper goes away, so does our freedom.

    Our freedom has nothing to do with Americans keeping bees.

    Of course Congress can't legislate away the health problems we have with our bees. One thing they did to help the beekeeping industry was to stop cheap Chinese honey from depressing our prices.

    I am a firm believer that nations have borders for a reason. I am a firm believer in import tariffs and duties on foreign products also. I have no confidence in my corrupt government doing the right thing until they have exhausted every other option.

    A far better solution than lobbying is educating the public about the honey they buy. There is a reason people pay me $4.75 for a 12 ounce bear when they can buy a bear in a big box store for $2.00.

  21. #80
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    Default Re: Commercial and Sideline only- Why do you stay in the bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Countryboy View Post
    There is a reason people pay me $4.75 for a 12 ounce bear when they can buy a bear in a big box store for $2.00.
    It may have something to do w/ the fact that whatever honey they buy, they are actually going to ingest it. Unlike leadbased painted toys and tainted sheetrock. China has already cornered the market on poor quality products. Once they decide they want to sell us quality, then were sunk.
    Mark Berninghausen

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