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  1. #81
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    I think the situation in Europe has been completely misrepresented in the press. WIRED NEWS reports:

    Clothianidin, is manufactured by German agrochemical company Bayer, though itís actually banned in Germany. Itís also banned in France, Italy and Slovenia. Those countries fear that clothianidin, which is designed to be absorbed by plant tissue and released in pollen and nectar to kill pests, is also dangerous to pollen- and nectar-eating bees that are critical to some plantsí reproductive success. -- http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...n-controversy/
    What they omit:

    The German government had initially banned clothianidin for use on maize and rapeseed, but the bans were lifted after the problem was resolved. Thus, this case doesnít hold the answer for the problems observed in the US and other countries either.

    The bans introduced in France left no significant mark on the bee mortality statistics. Either the French farmers found a way of bypassing the ban, or the banned substances werenít causing that much harm after all. Due to the inefficiency of the ban in France, manufacturers including Germany-based Bayer are hoping to have it lifted very soon. -- Chemistry World | February 2010
    Numerous studies in Europe have shown NO LINK between neonicotinoids and bee losses.

    In 1997, several beekeepers reported that colony death and weakness were the consequence of the use of imidacloprid for seed dressing. This product is indeed very toxic for bees as confirmed by laboratory and semi-field tests.

    However, several field studies were conducted in France and elsewhere with colonies kept close to cultures issued from seeds dressed with imidacloprid. None has shown any adverse effect of this product.

    This has been confirmed by some bee-keepers that testified that they suffered no adverse effect from such cultures. Additionally, observations in France revealed imidacloprid in pollen loads of several surveyed apiaries with no acute adverse effects on them.

    An expert panel gathered by the French Ministry of agriculture studied several scenarios of contamination of bee colonies by imidacloprid. Experts concluded that several PEC/PNEC ratios were very preoccupying. However the experiment we had conducted on colonies for mimicking the natural consumption of contaminated nectar (the most risky scenario according to the expert panel) did not show any adverse effect on the tested colonies.

    We conclude that, if contamination by imidacloprid from sunflower cultures issued from treated seeds may have occurred simultaneously with a period of colony losses as described by several French bee-keepers, such occurrence has not been observed systematically, and no negative impact on bee colonies of the use of Gauchoģ has been experimentally demonstrated in the field.

    -- IMIDACLOPRID AND BEE MORTALITY IN FRANCE M. Aubert, J.-P.Faucon, A.-C. Martel and M.-P.Chauzat AFSSA
    SEE ALSO:

    The German bee monitoring project: a long term study to understand periodically high winter losses of honey bee colonies

    Periodical honey bee colony losses in Germany: preliminary results from a four years monitoring project

    Does Imidacloprid Seed-Treated Maize Have an Impact on Honey Bee Mortality?

    Influence of Pesticide Residues on Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Colony Health in France

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    The most significant report to come out is publicly available at PLoS

    In 2010 they write

    Pesticide interactions among various mixures as well as with other stressors including Varroa and Nosema, beneficial hive microbes, and impacts on bee immune systems all require further study. It seems to us that it is far too early to attempt to link or to dismiss pesticide impacts with CCD.
    SOURCE

    High Levels of Miticides and Agrochemicals in North American Apiaries: Implications for Honey Bee Health. by Christopher A. Mullin, Maryann Frazier, James L. Frazier, Sara Ashcraft, Roger Simonds, Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Jeffery S. Pettis

    Funding was received from the Florida State Beekeepers, National Honey Board, Penn State College of Agriculture Sciences, Project Apis mellifera (PAm), Tampa Bay Beekeepers, The Foundation for the Preservation of Honey Bees, and the United States Department of Agriculture Critical Issues program.

  4. #83
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    If anyone is really serious about reading up on Neonics and Bees:

    A meta-analysis of experiments testing the effects of a neonicotinoid insecticide (imidacloprid) on honey bees. James E. Cresswell

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7v320r55510tr54/

  5. #84
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    This interview with Dr Henk Tennekes is worth listening to as well.

    http://biobees.libsyn.com/

    http://www.disasterinthemaking.com/

  6. #85
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Peter:

    The neonic coated maize seed ban has resulted in greatly reduced bee mortality in northern Italy (neonics are still sprayed on other crops in the south) as reported by Italian beekeepers.

    I would say that Italian beekeepers have found a correlation between the neonic ban and colony health. Remember, it's statistically significant.

  7. #86
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Peter:

    The neonic coated maize seed ban has resulted in greatly reduced bee mortality in northern Italy (neonics are still sprayed on other crops in the south) as reported by Italian beekeepers.

    I would say that Italian beekeepers have found a correlation between the neonic ban and colony health. Remember, it's statistically significant.
    It does look like a resounding, spectacular success. During this yearís neonicotinoid-free maize sowing in Italy hardly a bee colony has been lost, bar a suspicious case where some leftover seed from last year may have been used. June 2009
    Only one problem. What if the seed coating didn't kill bees? The fact that the bees did well after the seed coating was banned does nothing to prove that the seed coating was a real problem the year before.

  8. #87
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Heh, heh.

    I seem to recall that they found that the neonic seed coat would pulverize and then the resulting dust would cover bees (like pollen) and be blown to surrounding fields as well.

    It's a formulation problem, no doubt. But, it's one heck of a correlation.

  9. #88
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Heh, heh.

    I seem to recall that they found that the neonic seed coat would pulverize and then the resulting dust would cover bees (like pollen) and be blown to surrounding fields as well. It's a formulation problem, no doubt. But, it's one heck of a correlation.
    This was true in some very isolated cases. It was a tragic accident but an accident nonetheless. Modern living is replete with risks, especially in the fields of agriculture and beekeeping.

    The margin of profit can be razor sharp, so farmers and honey producers are continually seeking to minimize their risks. Some beekeepers are fortunate enough to be independent of agriculture and vice versa. It is where these factions interact, which should be mutually beneficial, that problems arise.

    All of the blaming and shouting merely heightens the atmosphere of antagonism. Organizations like Bee Friendly Farming are trying to bridge this gap.

    beefriendlyfarming.org


  10. #89
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Not so fast Peter.

    It was a material product defect in all of the neonic maize seed coatings, and the Italians caught them red handed. That's why it was banned in Italy.

    In short, because of the product defect (friable neonic seed coatings forming a powder and no longer being in situ but blowing as dust across fields), Italian beekeepers suffered a measurable financial loss. This doesn't include the environmental impact on the Italian countryside.

    Do you see why Bayer was negligent?

  11. #90
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Right, but take the example of car companies. They have had numerous problems, like sticking gas pedals, defective tires, exploding gas tanks, etc. But we don't propose banning cars. Better, safer cars is what we demand.

    Neonicotinoids are marketed as better, safer pesticides. If you look back at all the pesticide kills over the past 100 years, times are a lot better than they were. "People who don't read history are condemned to repeat it."

    But bottom line is this: in all studies done on the bee kill of the past ten years, they have documented the presence of varroa mites, viruses, new pathogens, and heavy residues from legal and illegal beekeeper applied chemicals.

    So, to single out neonics as the biggest and baddest is simply to put blinders on and run full speed ahead. I am NOT saying they are not a factor, not a concern. What I am saying is that you may ban them but the problems WILL NOT go away.

    It is not any ONE thing.

  12. #91
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    I agree that there are worse assaults against honeybees than pesticides, but they are caused by globalization in general.

    My thinking about the cause of CCD has evolved past neonics. I think that it's far worse than that. I still believe that the Maori et al. (2007) find is a key piece of evidence for the real cause of CCD. I also think that CCD is yet another symptom of something far more serious.

    But I digress.

    PS- You should have told the Beelogic guys that instead of selling beekeepers dsRNA, they should help them to indentify bees that are 'naturally transgenic' and therefore resistant to viruses.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    I also think that CCD is yet another symptom of something far more serious.
    Let me guess: Sunspots? Atheism? Fluorinated water?

    Have you seen the recent "USDA Colony Collapse Disorder Progress Report, CCD Steering Committee"

    Or is it suspect because the USDA is in league with Bayer Crop Science?

  14. #93
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Why yes, I have read the report. I put it on my desktop only the other day. 34% estimated losses in 2010. It isn't getting better now, is it?

    Here's the issue in a nutshell: what is the common molecular mechanism that ties together all of the findings? (HINT: part of it is the topic of the above PS)

    By that I mean, what can cause bees to leave the hive, and keep going?

    Now if you have a reference handy on the mode of action of neonics on insects (something molecular like inhibition of DNA methylation), I'd appreciate it.

  15. #94
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    What can cause bees to leave the hive, and keep going?
    Well, my own take is that any bee that is damaged, whether by parasite, virus, pesticide or "old age" will deliberately take itself out of the colony. That is, fly off and die. Altruistic suicide is the term for it. Any one of these factors or a combination of them can cause this phenomenon. If enough of the bees do it, the colony collapses, leaving the queen and brood. In a tropical climate, it would work. The colony could go down to a few thousand individuals and come back. Even here, in the summer, a colony can go from two frames to twenty in a matter of weeks. But in autumn, it is a death sentence.

    Now if you have a reference handy on the mode of action of neonics on insects (something molecular like inhibition of DNA methylation), I'd appreciate it.
    Will work on it. I'm sure it's in there with 3900 other pdfs

  16. #95
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    WLC

    You are putting me on, right? You probably already know all about Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptors.

    PLB

  17. #96
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Peter:

    I mean evidence showing that neonics also inhibits another molecular pathway. Something that can switch on genes that are normally methylated and therefore off.

    There has been some research on how caste differention is determined by a handful of genes that are normally kept inactive by guess what? DNA methylation.

    Neonics alone won't produce CCD as far as I know (unless you ask the french).

    However, if there is some evidence showing inhibition of DNA methylation by neonics, then maybe there's more to neonics than just affecting one type of nerve receptor. I'm looking for a relationship between neonics and behavioral molecular switches, like DNA methylation because it ties in with some of the other possible causes of CCD. Inhibition of the RNAi pathway by pathogens is related to inhibition of DNA methylation as well. And thus, behavioral changes.

    So if you do find that reference. it might help to tie things together.

  18. #97
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Remember folks we are also eating this stuff in our food...what is the long term affect on us? Guess we'll find out in 20 years. DDT was hailed as great and would not harm us remember? I dont think they kill the bee..but you combine a weakoned immune system(insecticide) viruses(carried by mites) and add that to stress and nutrition (either monoculture or drought related) and you have a mess. remove the weakoned immune system and survival is much differant. From what I hear bees in some places are again falling apart much like yrs past....all when no new bees are hatching(shortened life span), weakoned immune system also leads to increased nosema levels.
    Last edited by Barry Digman; 12-19-2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Off topic

  19. #98
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Peter: I mean evidence showing that neonics also inhibits another molecular pathway. Something that can switch on genes that are normally methylated and therefore off.
    Yes, well, you are holding back some cards, WLC. I assume you are way ahead of me on this one. Are you talking about this?:

    The bulk of underlying molecular changes occur within the first 8 days of adult life, as attested to by microarray data. After this time she is competent to forage, even if she does not do so and remains as a nurse or a guard.

    The day 8 time point also marks a salient transition in the brain in terms of the subtypes of nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. At this time a late onset subtype receptor is activated which constitutes a major alteration in the cholinergic system, (where acetylcholine is the major transmitter in the olfactory network and is found in the Kenyon cells of the mushroom bodies).

    Furthermore, both octopamine and juvenile hormone influence the probability of shifting from the hive work of feeding larvae to that of moving to a foraging existence.

    Epigenomic communication systems in humans and honey bees: From molecules to behavior. Miklos and Maleszka. 2010

  20. #99
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    That's a big piece of it.

    However, I'm looking for the bee analogy to pesticide use, DNA methylation, and autism in humans.

    Now if there is no such evidence for insects and neonics, then maybe the link to neonics and CCD that I'm looking for isn't there.

  21. #100
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    CCD related or not does not matter to me. If Clothianidin is toxic to bees, other insects. worms in the ground, the animals that eat those insects, the animals that eat the plant, it should not be on the market. No toxic chemical should ever be given use in the way this stuff has without serious research and tests done to evaluate all aspects of risk from its use, now and into the future at all levels. These chemicals and the way they are pushed onto the market are the result of pure greed. We dont need Clothianidin and can easily grow corn and other products without it.

    The EPA needs to be restructured. The way The EPA works needs to be restructured. The way pesticieds are given approval need to be restructured. Bayer had more than ample time to do proper tests and studies on Clothianidin. What took so long. Maybe they did several studies and they all turned out bad for them so they just kept doing studies decreasing acreage or untill they were dealt a hand that worked for them like a better pollen source and flow so the bees did not even touch the acrage that would have effected the bees anyway.

    For one Bayer's studies should not be the ones used to gain approval in the first place. Thats like letting a teenager give themselves their own drivers licence test. Let Bayer do the tests and then have independent companies repeat the tests to verify the results are not bias. I would also want the seed used in these test bought off the shelf from a ramdom supplier and not from bayer so they can be doctored to give better results.

    Who comes up with these approval processes. It is obviously not an average citizen because third graders could come up with a better solution for a viable system of checks and balances to insure risk to the public and natures health is not compromised.

    We are truly the laughing stock of other countries. I am ashamed of our county. Sorry but I am.

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