LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Are any of the posters aware that the original CCD team and people like Randy Oliver have looked deeply into the Bayer systemic question and found little evidence that they have caused a widespread bees collapse or is the source of CCD?

    While there are handful of scientists still looking at the Bayer chemicals in regards to honeybees, the initial wave of concern and research is over. This story is not very interesting really as the majority of crops that clothidian is used on are NOT visited by honeybees.

    With that said yes it looks like the registration was botched and more work needs to be done. My point is if anyone thinks this is going to blow open some huge conspiracy and coverup by Bayer that results in a conclusion that BAyer is the source of all bee losses I think you're sadly mistaken. In fact Bayer has been very open and accessible and formed a round table of beekeepers and researchers that met a couple of times a year to go over concerns and develop further testing that beekeepers would like to see done. People like Randy Oiliver, Dave Mendes and Jerry Bromenscheck whom are widely respected are part of this round table.

    Oh and btw how many beeks have or still use Checkmite? Its made by Bayer and thousands of beekeepers around the world willingly put it into there hives even though we do have a huge pile of research that shows that long term residues are extremely damaging to honeybees.

    This pile of research about Checkmite is huge while there is nothing really about Clothidian finding its way into hives and attaining a level thats harmful to bees. The massive Maryam Frazier study of combs, honey and pollen from CCD hives found little to no Bayer chems in facts not even in the top 25 chemicals found in hives. Instead the top 5 chemicals found in CCD hives 4 of them are beekeeper applied chems and one of them is Bayers Checkmite.

    But that never seems to elicit the same passionate postings like the speculative rants here on some supposed EPA missing document that implies a massive coverup blah blah blah.

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    I agree almost entirely with your concept that we at times are our own worst enemy. That is why I am treatment free. However when spring arrives if i see evidence of Nosema i will treat for it, and if I see an advance of SHB I will use traps. I don't consider those treatments just common sense practices.
    Now if the clothianidin is in the plant as has been reported then there would be no residue in the hive, because the bees would never make it back to the hive. Therin being the reason why there is no bees left in the hive like is reported with CCD.
    No, I do not believe that Bayer is the only one responsible for the problems that we encounter in todays bee keeping world. As I have made plain I do not trust the reports that come from some of these studys, because they get watered down or ignored in too many cases.
    We as humans are susceptible to being bought. ALMOST all can, some just have a higher price. the people with money know this and know how to approach their prey.
    So much to learn, so little time!!

  4. #23
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    England's Beekeeper Association's boardmembers passed a resolution last year in favor of Bayer. That's despite that the large majority of it's members were against the resolution. I am a member of their site and get emails once in a while. It's interesting to see what's happening on the other side of the pond. The beeks over there believe there is a strong tie between Bayer's product and CCD.
    De Colores,
    Ken

  5. #24
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Well after reading an article yesterday it looks like credits for corn ethonal might be coming to an end. I dont know how this will affect corn production (if this chemical is the problem), things may change in the coming years.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Is this the product they use to protect the seed from a worm eating the seed?

    Bryn

  7. #26
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by USCBeeMan View Post
    The beeks over there believe there is a strong tie between Bayer's product and CCD.
    Some of the more vocal beekeepers certainly do, but those who spend any amount of time looking at the available peer reviewed evidence think otherwise.
    There is nothing like CCD in the UK in spite of the fact that we have neonicotinoids in widespread use.
    Colony numbers have actually increased from 40,000 to 120,000 in the last 30 months and that is according to the BBKA's official figures.
    There are a few thousand queens imported each year but most of that increase has been natural via existing stocks.

  8. #27
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    blah blah blah.
    I am sorry that I didn't know that you had been blah, blah, blahing this for over two years.

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/arch.../t-222902.html

    That is my fault.

    If this situation appears to be above board to you then that's great. What I read said that the pesticides in question had become registered and approved through invalid testing which would be the same as no official means. So the EPA couldn't do the testing and couldn't even oversee the testing? I know that I just get to read what the media feeds me but I am losing more and more faith in the EPA (local dumps) and this just fuels the issue. Skepticism on all fronts. Who am I to believe? They guy telling me she is an Italian queen? The guy telling me MegaBee is good for my bees? The various claims on mite treatments? What I read online? YOU telling me story is not very interesting? It is easy to feel mislead these days. Right now, this story is interesting to me because I am new to it. Given all of the specials on TV I would venture to say that more people know about it now than ever before soooo.......... I think that bee awareness is a good thing.

    As Dennis Miller would say, "You are your own best bet."

    In the two years of testing, what conclusions then have been made about CCD? I haven't read anything implicating the miticides and while I agree that we people don't always adhere to best practices, this too isn't the cause (apparently).

    I think many would like to hear about the CCD research. Where do you suppose it is?

  9. #28
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    This pile of research about Checkmite is huge while there is nothing really about Clothidian finding its way into hives and attaining a level thats harmful to bees. The massive Maryam Frazier study of combs, honey and pollen from CCD hives found little to no Bayer chems in facts not even in the top 25 chemicals found in hives. Instead the top 5 chemicals found in CCD hives 4 of them are beekeeper applied chems and one of them is Bayers Checkmite.
    Which is precisely why I and others have gone treatment free. That, in addition to the resistance developing against treatments by the mites, etc.
    Regards,
    Steven
    "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail." - A.H. Maslow

  10. #29
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bjoynes View Post
    Is this the product they use to protect the seed from a worm eating the seed?

    Bryn
    NO!
    We are way past protecting the seed. This product, clothidinian, actually grows into the plant itself, and will kill the worm that eat on the ear, and the bees that might collect pollen off of it.
    That being said, corn is a self/wind pollinatinated plant. So I doubt that the bees feast on the corn pollen. But who knows, maybe during a dearth the corn pollen may be a good source for them. What about canola and other flowering plants that are planted for harvest? Like I said earlier this can be a reason with CCD there are no bees left, not even dead ones. If the foragers do not return then do the nurse bees enmass take up foraging?
    So much to learn, so little time!!

  11. #30
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Like all neonicotinoids, it is a systemic pesticide. When applied to the seeds of plants it spreads itself throughout all plant tissues, yes all plant tissues.

    Do your research and ask questions.

    Do neonicotinoid seed treatments leave residues in the soil? How persistent are neonicotinoids in the soil? Do systemic pesticides affect bee friendly plants growing in contaminated soil? Can contaminated residues become wind-borne during dry weather tilling? How do systemic pesticides crossover into consumer products? What are the current tolerances for neonicotinoid residues in corn gluten meal and soybean meal? Are the allowed tolerances for meal higher than the tolerances for treated seed? What are the sources of the ingredients in the products you feed? Are the ingredients in the products you feed routinely tested for pesticide contamination?

    Caveat emptor!
    Last edited by greengecko; 12-14-2010 at 11:51 AM.

  12. #31
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    Thumbs down Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    For all you worry warts;

    Guess who test the prescription drugs YOU take.

    Clue - It isn't the FDA !

    PCM

  13. #32
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    [QUOTE=Bud Dingler;601108]Are any of the posters aware that the original CCD team and people like Randy Oliver have looked deeply into the Bayer systemic question and found little evidence that they have caused a widespread bees collapse or is the source of CCD?

    While there are handful of scientists still looking at the Bayer chemicals in regards to honeybees, the initial wave of concern and research is over. This story is not very interesting really as the majority of crops that clothidian is used on are NOT visited by honeybees.

    Randy Oliver is the Know ?
    Pesticide is used for bug control ?? and Honey Bee's are not effected by pesticide ? In effect Pesticide has on Honey Bee's is non-existent ?....right ? LOL
    When honey Bee's have no other source of food. "When you have Acres and Acres of one Treated plant " Found in every State ! Honey Bee's will take ,what ever is available ? And The Honey bee Will Die.......
    " NO PROBLEM ! " Blah,Blah,Blah......

  14. #33
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    http://www.grist.org/i/assets/Memo_1.pdf


    UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
    WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
    0FFICE OF PREVENTION, PESTICIDES AND
    TOXIC SUBSTANCES
    MEMORANDUM 2/20/03
    Subject: EFED Risk Assessment for the Seed Treatment of Clothianidin 600FS on Corn and
    Canola (PC Code 044309; DP Barcode: D278 1 10)

    Att. : page 5 of 91 End Use Product
    This chemical has properties and characteristics associated with chemicals detected in ground
    water. The use of this chemical in areas where soils are permeable, particularly where the water
    table is shallow, may result in ground water contamination.
    This compound is toxic to birds and mammals. Treated clothianidin seeds exposed on soil surface
    may be hazardous to birds and mammals. Cover or collect clothianidin seeds spilled during
    loading.
    This product is toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Do not apply directly to water, or to areas where
    surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Do not
    contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters.
    This compound is toxic to honey bees. The persistence of residues and the expression of
    clothianidin in nectar and pollen suggests the possibility of chronic toxic risk to honey bee larvae
    and the eventual stability of the hive.

  15. #34
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Here is the email I received from Biobees.com in the UK. There is also a link to a POD cast if you want to hear it.

    [SIZE=3]Dear Ken,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Insecticides are a hot issue in beekeeping: the British Bee Keepers Association is refusing to sever its ties with pesticide manufacturers despite pressure from many of its members, and it seems that some recent CCD research has been compromised by the influence of the same corporations, determined to protect their profits no matter what the cost to nature.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]The subject of my latest podacst is Dr Henk Tennekes, who was born in The Netherlands, and after graduating from the Agricultural University of Wageningen in 1974, he performed his Ph.D. work at Shell Research Ltd in the UK. He later worked for 5 years at the Cancer Research Centre in Heidelberg, Germany.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]The culmination of Dr Tennekes' research was his recent discovery that the way the neonicotinoid insecticides work has much in common with that of chemical carcinogens - cancer-causing agents.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]When he realized the dire consequences of environmental pollution with these insecticides, he decided to write a book to warn the general public about an impending catastrophe.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]The title of Dr Tennekes book is: The Systemic Insecticides - a Disaster in the Making. You can read more about him and his book at [/SIZE][SIZE=3]www.disasterinthemaking.com[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]This is an issue that should concern all beekeepers, everywhere. Neonicotinoids are being sprayed on a wide range of crops worldwide, and right now they could be putting at risk a number of species of insects, as well as the birds, fish and other creatures that depend on insects for food.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]We could just sit back and let this happen. But then, what are you going to tell your grandchildren when they ask, "Where have all the bees gone?"[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]You can listen to my interview with Henk Tennekes at [/SIZE][SIZE=3]http://biobees.libsyn.com[/SIZE][SIZE=3] or search for 'Barefoot Beekeeper' on iTunes.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Best wishes,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Phil Chandler[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]www.biobees.com[/SIZE]
    De Colores,
    Ken

  16. #35
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    WOW!

    To illustrate just how poisonous the neonicotinoids can be, imagine - if you will - an Olympic-size swimming pool, 50 metres by 25 metres, containing two and a half million litres of water - that's 2,500 metric tonnes - or over half a million UK gallons - or about two thirds of a million US gallons. With that picture in mind, imagine taking just one tablespoon of a neonicotinoid insecticide - just one tablespoon - and adding it to that Olympic-size swimming
    pool.

    Once that tiny amount of chemical has dispersed into the water - and despite the almost unimaginably small quantity of active ingredient in any single drop, that entire swimming pool is now toxic to bees.
    Source :
    http://biobees.libsyn.com/

  17. #36
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    The analogy about the swimming pool leaves out the fact that whilst most of the neonics are posionous to bees in their liquid form right before application that's not the concern as few if any bees will be exposed to this while its being applied.

    The real concern in the bee world is the metabolites that are formed in the plant that are spread to the plant tissues, nectar and pollen that the bees could ingest. Posting some EPA document that tells us these chemicals in their liquid form are poisonous misses the whole point of concern.

    Numerous studies now exist that document the level of metabolites that can kill a honey bee and also the typical level found in plants after application. Frankly most of the levels found in crops are way below the amount found to harm honeybees. Folks that's why these chemicals are still on the market and has nothing to do with politics of big corporations.

    The often made claim that typical field residue ingestion of these systemic chemicals by bees makes them lose their navigation skills also is also not supported by the scientific evidence.

    Whats really ironic about this is that the systemics are mostly nicotine derivatives that in the general environment are much less harmful then the organophosphates they are replacing in agriculture. Organophosphates stay active on the surface of the plant and are extremely poisonous to honeybees for up to a week after application. What I'm saying is if you know anything about agricultural insecticides you would know that the systemics move us a little closer to sustainable agriculture and away from a more posionous alternative. Beekeepers should be happy these chemicals are used so widely or our bees would be exposed to more poisonous substances on a frequent basis.

  18. #37
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Dingler View Post
    Beekeepers should be happy these chemicals are used so widely or our bees would be exposed to more poisonous substances on a frequent basis.
    Is the future of bees in the hands of the pesticide lobby?

    https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248488

  19. #38
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    The science won't be settled on this forum. The relative toxicity of organophosphates vis-a-vis nicotinoids isn't the issue raised by the O.P. Liquid form v metabolites is a question the answer for which lies beyond our expertise, and even beyond the available data. What we are able to recognize and react reasonably and capably to is the flawed nature of this EPA registration and review process. The substance was registered through a clearly flawed process that was clearly based on a study that the EPA later rejected. Ergo the substance should not have been registered, yet EPA continues to defend the registration. If science is on the side of the substance and other nicotinoids, let the science establish that through a proper study, as required by law, and as was clearly not provided in this registration process. All the rest of our armchair discussions about the scientific merits either way are just farts in the wind, folks. The point is, the EPA is for SOME reason refusing to do its job and to follow the law.

  20. #39
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    OBAMA had nothing to do with this mess. Preach your politics elsewhere. This is about bees.
    WD9BB, Chuck

  21. #40
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    Default Re: LEAKED EPA allows bee toxic pesticide ? ccd ?

    Respectfully to Bud Dingler,
    Your #36 post in my humble opinion is a statement from someone who does not understand the way Bayer is using these nicotinoids. I would suggest that you go back and read some of the facts, then repost what you think about Bayer.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-16-2010 at 03:49 PM. Reason: uncivil
    So much to learn, so little time!!

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