"What's a Bee Haver?" - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    I am new to all this. Years ago I knew pretty well how to care for bees. many years ago actually. Then it did not take a lot of information. Now I am reading a lot about what you need to know about bees to "Keep" them rather than just have them. IT used to be you captured a swarm and where off and running. if you wanted more hives you captured another swarm usually from your own hive. My great grandfather managed his bees in this way his entire life. then came the Africanized bee scare. After that it all went to hell. What happened? replacing queens every year is what I see. Now it seems most Bee Keepers replace there entire hive every hear. As of this moment I see the Bee Keeper is harming the Bee Haver rather than the other way around.
    At this moment I am hoping to capture local bees. But if every other possessor of bees in the county has purchased bees, will not my colony become at least half "inbreed" packaged bees after the first replacement of the queen? Since I just added "Inbreed" to the conversation I will explain. I chose that word to express the wide variety of problems that buying packaged bees or nucs could possibly be introducing. Not that I am claiming true inbreeding problems in the bees. I just thought it a handy word to use to roll the whole mess into one.
    Most likely any swarm I manage to capture will be the product of packaged bees. Bad start to begin with.
    I think it is a good question though. who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.
    Not arguing here just putting forth a new thread of thought on Bee Having vs Bee Keeping.

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  3. #82
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    As of this moment I see the Bee Keeper is harming the Bee Haver rather than the other way around...
    who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.
    Not arguing here just putting forth a new thread of thought on Bee Having vs Bee Keeping.
    ut oh.

    I chose to let bees be bees and not be their doctor. I am probably not a beekeeper or a behaver but more of a bee provider that provides a home for natures fascinating creatures. I have tried to learn what they need and want and will continue to do so. According to posts on this forum the bees have produced more than I and they need and have been patient with me doing dumb things. Today I can't believe I resisted my wife buying our first hive.

    Mark, you started this thread with a paranoia about other people's tainted bees infecting your hives. So why is it that your bees unwillingly cover thousands of miles of bad road year after year? Wouldn't you want to keep them home where you could create a nice chemical barrier from the adjacent elements? Is your friend in New Hartford and Sauquoit paranoid too? Give him my coordinates so he can protect his hives too.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #83
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    I can't get DanielY's last post out of my mind. To quote, "who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees."

    As an analogy, I present my large feral hog population. As a boy, some 60 years ago, I was often dispatched to our neighbour's farm to assist an older man with his tame pigs. Our neighbour vaccinated his pigs, took great care of them at birth, fed them mineral supplement and yada, yada, .... He was always concerned about the pigs getting too hot and constantly cautioned me to be easy with the pigs. Moving the clock forward to this date, my ranch is being over run with feral pigs. I have trapped 14 in the last 20 days. They obviously do not have any care. They have big litters and seem to be disease proof. I realize a pig is different than an insect, but still, they seem to do their best when left alone.

  5. #84
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    This article was written by Ralph Ziegler a contributing writer to Modern Beekeeping. This excerpt appeared in the October 1952 edition of Modern Beekeeping.
    As the honey gathering season draws reluctantly to a close, we are inclined to wonder how many of those who started with bees last spring are still beginners and how many are real beekeepers. All have no doubt made mistakes. Those who have blamed themselves for their errors, taking steps to correct them and prevent their happening again are real beekeepers, while those who blame the bees, the weather, the package bee shipper, the equipment manufacturers and everything else in sight are still just beginners.

  6. #85
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post

    Mark, you started this thread with a paranoia about other people's tainted bees infecting your hives.
    I did? Show me. All I did to start this Thread was to type in the title and write the first Post, "That's the question." It's amazing how someone can read between the lines when there is only one line.

    I am not afraid of anything you and your one hive may do. I take care of my own and don't much concern myself w/ what others do.

    And, as far as my friend in Sauquoit, he doesn't waste any time being scared by much of anything.
    Mark Berninghausen

  7. #86
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    I am glad I sat most of this thread out. While beehavers were more common in years past. They are becoming a endangered species. With the onslaught of all the problems that have beset the beekeeping industry in the past 25 years, most beekeepers now practice "No Till" management. You do not "Know Till" you get out into the beeyard how many colonies you have that are productive. And what you have to do to keep those colonies strong and disease free. With all the pestilence in the beekeeping industry numbers have a way of fluctuating.TED
    ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*

  8. #87
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    .....
    no fair, your making it very hard to read between the lines??
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  9. #88
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    i have been reading the comments on what a bee haver is i think we all where at one time ya gotta start somewhere and the beginng is better then the middle because you will miss to much. bees are the coolest. goodluck to all and stay sticky.

  10. #89
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    IT used to be you captured a swarm and where off and running. if you wanted more hives you captured another swarm usually from your own hive. My great grandfather managed his bees in this way his entire life.

    who is really harming the bees. the person that shoves them out back to live or die by their own devices or the person that is hands on every week? Replacing failing bees every spring with more failing bees.
    Well Daniel, you answered the question perfectly. A bee haver has bees in the backyard and does nothing but capture swarms to fill the dead hives. That kind of beekeeping was practiced by all our great grandfathers and before. To me that's skep beekeeping. And when they can't catch swarms...which are few andf far between in my area...they buy packages of failing bees to replace their failing bees.

    A beekeeper works with their bees, raising good stocks, suitable to their area. Just because a beekeeper actually manages his/her bees, it doesn't mean that they are working against the bees or against nature. It doesn't mean they are harming the bees. If you think so come have a look at my bees....managed, selected, grown, coddled and loved by me, a bee-keeper.

    I for one refuse to shove my bees out back and allow them to live or die by their own devices. You may if you like. If you do I have a suggestion. Buy skeps...they're cheaper...and cute.

  11. #90
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I chose to let bees be bees and not be their doctor.
    Perhaps doctor is the wrong word? I choose to be their "partner".

  12. #91
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Michael. Don't assume my observations indicate what I do. Today you have to do what is necessary to keep the bees. Things have changed a lot since my great grandfathers day. Keep in mind he was probably getting his first hives when Doctor Doolittle was rearing queens. You also assume his bees died. They did not. Last time I saw them they where doing very well after ten years or so of no management at all. He went blind at about age 90 and was moved off his farm. Shortly before he died at age 100 we went to visit his farm. The hives where there and full of bees.

  13. #92
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    I take care of my own and don't much concern myself w/ what others do.
    But are people who have bees helpful to or good for the rest of us who "keep" bees? If they have them and don't take care of them, because they just want to have them around to pollinate the garden, aren't they going to be a source of diseases and pests?
    It is not hard to read between your lines. This was your third post on this topic. And your second one was a one liner too, just warming up to your third.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #93
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Oh, I see. Yes, I wrote that. I see what you are refering to. It would make things easier if you wouldn't remove the link to the source of what you quote.

    Sometimes I pose questions. Doing so doesn't mean I am SCARED. On the other hand, knowing that higher percentage of cases of AFB reside in colonies in Apiaries owned by beekeepers w/ smaller numbers of bees indicates to me that people w/ fewer hives need more education. There is more to beekeeping than just having bees in a box in the back yard.
    Mark Berninghausen

  15. #94
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by lazy shooter View Post
    As an analogy, I present my large feral hog population. As a boy, some 60 years ago, I was often dispatched to our neighbour's farm to assist an older man with his tame pigs. Our neighbour vaccinated his pigs, took great care of them at birth, fed them mineral supplement and yada, yada, .... He was always concerned about the pigs getting too hot and constantly cautioned me to be easy with the pigs. Moving the clock forward to this date, my ranch is being over run with feral pigs. I have trapped 14 in the last 20 days. They obviously do not have any care. They have big litters and seem to be disease proof. I realize a pig is different than an insect, but still, they seem to do their best when left alone.
    This is not a fair analogy. Due to the fact pigs,hogs what ever you want to call them physically change when they go feral. Thier heads will even change. They grow harsh hair, thier snouts get longer, they grow tusks. They change physically from what we keep as domestics. And this is not over generations either. If they survive they morph within months
    http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/o..._revert_t.html

    I am not aware of any other animal or insect that does this.

  16. #95
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Oh, I see. Yes, I wrote that. I see what you are refering to. It would make things easier if you wouldn't remove the link to the source of what you quote.
    This forum doesn't make it easy to quote a post and then go back several pages to quote another post. So I use cut and paste to a word processor. I don't think anybody will have an issue determining where the quote was taken from.
    I would like to see the numbers on your claim broken down on how the AFB infection occurred. For instance 1. Were these hives abandoned for some reason? 2. Did the infection come from some outfit dumping their problem off on the back yard beek who doesn't know any better? 3. Is it a real problem in NYS if the state has decided that the inspection program wasn't worth funding? 4. Why is it a problem in other states that do fund an inspection program?

    As long as we are posing questions...
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #96
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Well, why NYS Dept. of Ag&Mkts doesn't have enuf full time Apiary Inspectors to cover the State has many reasons. Some of which are, there never has been enuf Inspectors to cover the whole State in one year. There just aren't enuf qualified persons available, even if the budget was there.

    Then there is the reason that NYS Beekeepers generally were not supportive of Apiary Inspection because it didn't serve beekeepers the way they wanted to be served.

    Then there is also State Budget Cuts. Ag&Mkts decided that Apiary Inspection was a good place to save 1/4 million dollars, since beekeepers weren't supportive anyway.

    The statistics which I refered to are statistics gathered for a number of years by NYS Apiary Inspection. I don't have the actual report, issued by Plant Industry Director Robert J. Mungari, retired. The report of annual Inspection results showed the majority of AFB occured in yards of smaller numbers owned by beekeepers w/ smaller numbers of colonies. Not abandoned colonies, necassarily. Neglected, perhaps.

    One has to know how AFB is transfered and new infections caused. Primarily this is a self inflicted problem. One either buys it or infects ones own colonies thru splitting infected colonies and putting extracted supers from infected colonies on previously uninfected colonies.
    Mark Berninghausen

  18. #97
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    One has to know how AFB is transfered and new infections caused. Primarily this is a self inflicted problem. One either buys it or infects ones own colonies thru splitting infected colonies and putting extracted supers from infected colonies on previously uninfected colonies.
    So the back yard beekeeper that buys or builds brand new equipment is of little risk except when he buys his bees. You would hope that if the state was going to inspect anything it would be the bee suppliers. That would nip it in the bud. I can see where someone selling bees would not support state inspectors. It could really bite couldn't it?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #98
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    That would nip it in the bud. I can see where someone selling bees would not support state inspectors. It could really bite couldn't it?
    Not necassarily. See the AFB Thread.

    Also, someone selling bees would benefit from Inspection, since selling bees is what makes them their income, keeping a clean operation is necassary and having an outside concern verify their status would be welcome.

    Also, since smaller noncommercial beekeeping operations is where disease predominantely resides, those bees should get the majority of the attention. But, education is the problem. Lack of it actually. If Apiary Inspection had more of an educational aspect to it, it would have been supported better in NY.
    Mark Berninghausen

  20. #99
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    Smile Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    I guess I am closer to a bee-haver than a bee-keeper. 3 years, started with 1 hive (nuc) and now have 3. I check them once or twice in the spring. Extract honey in the late summer. Feed a lot in the fall. Maybe 4 light inspections all year. I only get into the bottom brood chambers once during the spring to break up the brood nest. I get swarms (maybe one per year, sometimes none) and usually catch them.

    Hives are as healthy as can be. Never once have I seen a mite or a hive beetle, dont even know what they look like. I saw 1 cock roach (large hive beetle? ) and 2 wax worms once.

    I try to bother them as little as possible and it work fine for me.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  21. #100
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    Default Re: "What's a Bee Haver?"

    The "Bull of the Woods", an old beekeeper, was known to proclaim that the majority of AFB came from hobbiest hives developed AFB, and not recognized by the "haver" as what it was, died as a result. The equipment was not sterilized, and was left in the field to be robbed out by other bees.

    Actually, there is a good chance that a person receiving a package with AFB spores in the bees, after hiving the bees, would not have a hive with AFB. The spores can pass through the bee while it is in the package, and be eliminated(read pooped out) before the package is hived.
    This principle is the basis of non-antibiotic treatment of AFB.

    With all lack of humility, some of us do not have to start out knowing nothing. Most of what we know was picked up at the dinner table.

    Crazy Roland, 5th gen. beekeeper.

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