Hive design, what type? - Page 4
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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    Jacksonville, Morgan County, IL
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbore View Post
    build everything you can, ( just to understand what it takes to make it).
    I would add that the only thing a first-year keeper should attempt to build is a bottom board and an outer cover (you can buy the metal covering).

    There's too much room to leave too much room or too little room between the various components when building hive bodies or supers until you have some experience.

    On the subject of box joints......not to start a Range War here, but if you drill / countersink the pre-drilled nail holes and use outdoor-rated screws.....using glue in addition on the corners is a luxury, not a necessity. Of course, the usual cautions about 'make it square' apply.

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  3. #62
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Algoma District Northern Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sour Kraut View Post
    I would add that the only thing a first-year keeper should attempt to build is a bottom board and an outer cover (you can buy the metal covering).

    There's too much room to leave too much room or too little room between the various components when building hive bodies or supers until you have some experience.

    On the subject of box joints......not to start a Range War here, but if you drill / countersink the pre-drilled nail holes and use outdoor-rated screws.....using glue in addition on the corners is a luxury, not a necessity. Of course, the usual cautions about 'make it square' apply.
    Oh no! Dont get the discussion going again about the relative importance of gluing and screwing!
    Frank

  4. #63
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    Dec 2010
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    My opinion - FWIW - is that this could have been a really good thread if it hadn't been hijacked by so many people banging-on about finger joints and the relative merits of 8-frame vs 10 frame Langstroth boxes ...

    'Hive Designs' - there are LOTS of designs 'out there' to choose from - Warre, Bienenkiste, Dadant, A-Z, Layens, KTBH, Tanzanian, Tabuzi - just to name a few - each with their own individual good and not-so-good features.

    That 'Horn' design puzzles me - how are those boxes fitted together without squashing bees ? Must say that I do like my vertical boxes to have flat tops and bottoms so that they can be slid/semi-rotated into position ...
    LJ
    Okay, you left out the best of them. The Modified Square Jumbo Dadant beehive, known in Europe as the Brother Adam beehive, has many, many advantages. Being square, one advantage is that the honey frames can be arranged so that they are 90 degrees to the brood frames and the bees all have easy access to any honey frame they choose.

    The brood nest is 11-11/16ths inches deep (I make mine 12-1/2 inches deep), allowing the most prolific queens plenty of room for a compact brood nest. The jumbo Dadant frames are 11-1/8 inch deep. This really helps Spring buildup rate. Narrow frames (1.240 inches wide side bars) also helps. 14 of the narrow frames will fit in this box. 12 standard-width U.S. frames will fit, also. 14 narrow frames make even more rapid Spring buildup, as does 5.1 mm foundation wax. The same number of bees can cover more brood during night time cluster. Insulated follower boards also help a lot.

    Use the search box here on Beesource to search out other older discussions regarding the MSJD beehive. I'll post more later.

  5. #64
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    Dane County, WI, USA
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by jtgoral View Post
    Horns are just to align boxes. Horn hives squash as many bees as any other type of hive. They are just DIY friendly. From videos I watched it looks like they use only screws without any glue.
    My opinion is that the best hive for a backyard beekeeper is a Dartington hive type designed around frames common in your country
    I want to build one - the "horn hive".
    (I would call them pegs - the "peg hive")

    You totally can slide the boxes, if only in one direction, but that is sufficient -
    how are those boxes fitted together without squashing bees ?
    Keep in mind, the "pegs" can be either built UP or DOWN - there are differences in operation and pluses/minuses to both.
    Fast majority of beeks who tried the peg-hives - loved them and just want more of them (saved for one or two who did dislike the design).

    I am still unsure which to try - pegs-UP or pegs-DOWN.
    Will try the UP version first and see.

    The peg hives can be build for Lang frames (will be rectangular then) - the Eeastern Euro staple is to build around Lang/Dadant medium frames - entire apiary then uses ONE frame/box.
    The peg hives can be built for short frames (300mm long) - so you have ~300mmx300mm (~12"x12") square boxes for Warre-style tree-hollow boxes.
    The tree-hollow box way fits me perfectly as I already practice that dimension.
    Last edited by GregV; 08-25-2019 at 10:47 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  6. #65
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    Okay, you left out the best of them. The Modified Square Jumbo Dadant beehive, ......
    Just as of this writing, more and more Eastern Euro beeks actually dumping their beloved Square Dadants and some Long Dadants in favor of:
    - 8-frame Dadant (simple OR peg-hives)
    - 8-frame medium-size standard frame peg-hives
    - 8-frame UDAV hive (modernized compact vertical hives) - both simple and peg-hives
    - .....(more, I don't care to list, but there is huge momentum towards more ergonomic hives at the moment - AWAY from the square Dadants - probably the worst human ergonomy).

    The main points are
    - human-ergonomics to allow for quick and easy work by a box by ANYONE - young, old, invalid, small women;
    - tree-hollow hive designs to better bee ergonomics;
    - small frame to allow for isolation and harvest of even small-flow crops (e.g. early honey crops; small urban crops, etc).

    Keep in mind, most of all Eastern Euro is much more cold and unstable climate (both summer and winter) vs the California, USA.

    PS: this being said, the long Dadants WILL be around forever since they are very human-friendly and near perfect for small-yard, stationary cases (just not friendly for mobile operations); the long Dadants have ALL of the advantages of the square Dadants and more - as long as you can afford to be stationary;
    the square Dadants are really on the loosing end of both - not great for mobile keeping (too heavy); not great for stationary either, since the long Dadants are better at it.
    Last edited by GregV; 08-25-2019 at 10:59 AM.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  7. #66
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregV View Post
    J.......
    - small frame to allow for isolation and harvest of even small-flow crops (e.g. early honey crops; small urban crops, etc).
    .
    I forgot additional AND huge feature of a small frame.
    Reduce size converts into reduced requirements for the strength - a small frame only holds 2-4 pounds of honey max.
    This converts into much simplified construction requirement and material requirement.
    Simply put - you cut small frame from scraps and assemble by staples AND no strong/fat top bar is required.

    This means gaps between the vertical boxes/cluster separating gaps are largely reduced - only a good thing in many contexts (wintering is one example).
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    South Hamilton, MA
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    187

    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    What are the bees looking for? Langs on pallets look more combustible, and they might like the familiar smoker shape.
    Other reasons I chose Langs:
    - can be broken into boxes
    - easy for 1 person to move
    - common

    Huge advantages of long hives:
    - You can make the hive living space any size.
    - large deep frames
    - not lifting boxes to inspect
    - easy to insulate

    Beekeeping is mostly about protecting bees from neighbors, so portability is vital. Beginners need something easy for mass queen production. I would like to learn about other hives (mainly long and Comfort hives). What is the ease of queen production? Why is a long hive entrance not in the follower board?
    David Smolinski USDA hardiness zone 6b

  9. #68
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    England, UK
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaCucumber View Post
    Langs on pallets look more combustible
    Boy - am I confused ... How is the ease of setting fire to beehives a positive selling point ?

    Beekeeping is mostly about protecting bees from neighbors, so portability is vital.
    I've never heard that one before ...

    Beginners need something easy for mass queen production.
    This makes very little sense - why would a beginner want to get involved in the mass production of Queens ?

    Why is a long hive entrance not in the follower board?
    If the entrance was in the follower board - how exactly would the bees ever get out of the hive ? The entrance to a bee-hive has to be made somewhere in the walls, bottom or top of the box (i.e. it has to lead to the outside world) - it can't possibly be made in an internal follower board - that makes no sense whatsoever.

    The only possible exception to this being Greg's "Hive within a Hive" concept where two Follower Boards constitute the 'Inner Hive' - but even then, the Hive Entrance itself (i.e. that of the 'Outer Hive') must lead to the outside world ...
    LJ
    Last edited by little_john; 08-25-2019 at 04:07 PM.
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  10. #69
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    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Boy - am I confused ...
    LJ
    +1
    I will let you LJ to be confused for me too.
    Moving along.
    Former "smoker boy". Classic, square 12 frame Dadants >> Long hive/Short frame/chemical-free experimentations.

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Denver Metro Area CO, USA
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    1,857

    Default Re: Hive design, what type?

    I would like to learn about other hives (mainly long and Comfort hives). What is the ease of queen production? Why is a long hive entrance not in the follower board?
    comfort hive https://youtu.be/D4tFVcR8Ouk?list=PL...KsCtI0e-IK9kbB

    "queen production" is wide topic and a wide range of equipment for certain tasks .... start, finish, mate etc... to start/finish Sam used a long comfort hive.

    I my self much prefer a long/horizontal/single box set up for cell raising as it means no lifting and fast access

    in a long hive the entrance is in the fount so the brood nest is in the front and the honey is in the back and you can work it from the back SOP for 3500 years or so.
    Last edited by msl; 08-25-2019 at 09:26 PM.

  12. #71
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    Venango/Crawford Pennsylvania
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    Smile Re: 8 frame vs. 10 frame equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by fatscher View Post
    Unsure if this topic belongs, but you may want to consider getting and starting out on 8 frame equipment, and stick with it.

    I use 10 frame, but I'm fairly young (43) and in great shape, no bad back or knees. A lot of older beeks advocate the 8 frame medium super, and build the brood hive 3 boxes tall.

    8-frame mediums are supposedly far easier to lift and manipulate than 10 frame. Something to consider.
    I am 62 and have always used 10 frame. In my stores I tell people, if they want a lighter super because of age or some ladies want lighter supers, I tell them use 10 frame deeps for Brood and use shallow supers with 9 frame spacers. This gives the queen 10 frames and the weight of the 9 frame shallow about the same as an 8 frame Medium.
    "Where wisdom is called for, force is of little use."
    Herodotus (circa 485-425 BC), Greek Historian

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